What the fuck!? The thread formally known as "I haven't heard a single compelling reason for Britain to leave the EU."

It’s very easy to hand wave the issue of immigration away. Especially with the rise of Nativists/Racists all over Europe taking the lead on the issue.

But there’s a fundamental issue of thousands of refugees arriving in a very short amount of time: they have no prospects to integrate into the host society (be it the UK, France etc) or even get any means to provide for themselves or their families. And in that situation what do you think is likely to happen?

(this is actually more acute on the Continent where county’s like France simply isolate immigrants in Suburbs while in Germany Angela Merkle openly crowed about the influx of slave cheap labor. And when you consider small countries like Denmark, the influx of immigrants means the society itself is going to change dramatically)

I don’t think slamming a wall around Great Britain Escape from New York style is any kind of rational answer, but I do think there are concerns about this Great Migration that aren’t being addressed (or being addressed in the most ham fisted way on both sides).

AWow. Canada shitting their pants over 25000 refugees is why we’re considered small-time, isn’t it?

Denmark’s actually become quite strict towards immigration, they’re controlling their boundaries and do not follow the Dublin regulation. There’s also a new law in vote which would give the Danish government the right to confiscate the refugees’ property.

Sweden’s a better example of this, they’ve been very open to immigrants for a decade, but not really put enough effort or assets to their integration. And now they’ve built themselves similar slums suburbs you find in Belgium.

AI’m not hand waving the issue of immigration. Quite the opposite. I’m furious about the response to it.

I’ve had personal experience of being a white guy growing up in an area transformed from white working class to multi-racial. I grew up in a mostly immigrant community fed by the wave of immigration from the Indian sub-continent in the 70s. Pretty much entirely nice people just trying to make their way or raise themselves out of the shit, who only ever became antagonistic in response to local aggression from those who never even bothered to give them a chance, and weren’t encouraged to. Immigration problems only exist as a product of the response from local communities. When it’s positive, intelligent and funded, you don’t get a problem. Even when it’d not funded it’s a hell of lot less of an issue if locals stop thinking nationalistically or assuming they have a God given right to exclusively occupy territory or a right to uninterrupted employment.

It is also worth mentioning that much of the debate is not focused on Syrian immigration, something to its shame the UK government has already imposed inequitable restrictions on within the EU (5000 a year, Cylon, 5000 a fucking year. It’s a disgrace), but EU economic immigration. You know, immigrants who come to the UK to work, who work hard, reducing the cost to business and consumers and (as far as I am aware) have a tendency to pay taxes and on average use fewer publicly funded resources. If there is pressure on housing it is no more than marginally amplifying a fundamental of low cost residential property development which has been not only a long standing social issue unrelated to immigration but actually one of the pillars of government policy since the 1980s to entrench support among the aspirational working and lower middle classes, and more lately the ageing property rich, by maintaining property values.

Besides, immigration really is a drop in the ocean when it comes to real effects. Yes, as far as I am aware, net migration represents something like 50% of the UK’s population growth, outstripping endogenous increases in population, but we’re talking in terms of a 0.6% total growth rate. Plus the numbers of non-EU migrants outstrips the numbers coming in from the EU, has done historically and continues to do so and is determined by entirely UK border policy and has sweet FA to do with the EU. Look, even taking that into account, I just don’t buy that a 0.3% increase in the population on an annual basis is capable of having the substantive adverse effects it is being linked to, nor that a sensible pro-active policy of increasing spending on housing couldn’t quite easily solve. It’s small potatoes in the round. There really isn’t anything to control, but what I would agree with is that there is something to be addressed in terms of domestic policy agendas in response to it.

What it is is a hot button emotional topic which can be easily stoked in people who, for utterly unrelated reasons, aren’t getting a fair crack of the whip. For reasons that are entirely due to policies followed by the government of which a large chunk of visible Brexiteers have been willing and enthusiastic members. It’s a canard exploited by people who are upset that the UK, in exercising the sovereignty we apparently lack, signed the Maastricht Treaty 20 plus years ago, because try as they might they cannot point to any material deleterious effect on the UK flowing from that decision or the existence of the EU. Fucking straight bananas and a constantly and deliberately misleading quote on EU budget contributions are about the long and the short of it. As a consequence it is getting far greater play than it merits either in terms of number of migrants or the effect it has on the economy and the majority of peoples’ lives. For those of us who believe political economies should be run through reason and not manipulation of people’s emotion that is a frustrating thing.

I’m not handwaving immigration. I’m just treating it with the disdain it deserves as a substantive factor in deciding whether or not to remain within the EU.

AYeah, the unfortunate thing about the whole debate is that the pros & cons of being in the EU have absolutely nothing to do with the crippling austerity put in place by the current governnent which has led to the Red Cross now providing food aid to the 5th richest country in the world. The EU is being used as a scapegoat, and leaving will achieve nothing except giving the double-bluffing government an excuse to say "well, we tried to get you to vote stay, but we’re out now so we’re going to have to make more cuts… "

My least favourite thing about the whole debate is how it’s seemingly given everybody free reign to unleash their racist vitriol with no restraint. My facebook feed now looks like it could be a lead-in for a deluxe edition of V For Vendetta. Terrifying.

According to the latest polls, Brexit is taking a material lead. I wish I could find some outlet for the anger and frustration I’m feeling but right now I feel like I just want to go and drink myself to death.

I’m out canvassing to remain on Saturday. Hope I don’t get into a fist fight.

Mr Pants, you might find this site useful if you haven’t seen it already.

https://fullfact.org/europe/

AThank you very much indeed. You know more about this than I know about anything.

I very much doubt that, Mr Pants. It’s just something I am very passionate about for all kinds of reasons. Some of them are even rational!

Vote? No. Can actively campaign for? Yes.

This.

Look, I’m pissed off with all sorts of crap the EU has thrown at me, examples:

Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 - This piece of shit limits the amount of e-liquid I can buy for my vaporizer in one go and how big the tank can get. It’s blatantly targetting small independent e-cig shops and manufactors whilst benefitting all those companies who invested in the all in one pen solutions… (see: big tobacco companies).

The update to Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulation, which was supposed to stop websites tracking me and storing my data. Instead, what happens? Every fucking European webpage has a popup at the bottom saying “We use cookies, deal with it”. Annoying and pointless.

And the proposed Freedom of Panorama laws scare the fricking beejesus out of me.

I HATE the fact that the EU Commission is staffed by scumbags like Kinnock and Mandelson that have no talent or use whatsoever and got their jobs by cronyism.

But… this is the point. Any independent UK government would probably sign those same dumb regulations after being pressured by the same corporate lobbyists. The House of Lords is 800 unelected, in for life wankers who know the right people. None of that is going to change.

What regulation is it that pisses off the UK business types pressing for this change? It’s stuff like Health and Safety regulations that mean my company can’t behave dangerously around me, it’s the fact I’m ensured 25 days holiday a year, that when I visited Greece a few weeks back I wasn’t being charged £2 a MB for my data anymore.

That’s the stuff Boris Johnson is itching to sort out. Red Tape that upsets business and benefits me. And fuck that.

ALess than 2 weeks to go. I’m a committed remainer. It’s true that the powers that be made a mess of the Euro currency - and the Greeks, Portuguese and Spanish are still suffering because of it - but if we leave then they will probably implement even crazier policies.

If you are in any doubt then watch err John Major, yes John Major destroy the leave campaign:

https://youtu.be/zyn9Lq5IX9E

AI’m also a committed remainer, and it’s not doing my blood pressure any good. I’m out campaigning over the next two weeks, and might just switch off the news until the referendum. I think both sides have their mature arguments out now, so it’s just going to turn into swapping punches.

We had a bit of a discussion/I went off on one in this thread.

http://www.chud.com/community/t/155548/i…ave-the-eu

If anyone thinks that leaving the EU will solve a single problem they’re kidding themselves. Unless their problem is that the consumer, labor and legal protections aren’t quite enough like the ones the US has. Which is non existent, for the sarcasm deficient.

ANow this is interesting. Schauble has categorically stated Britain won’t have access to the Single Market if we leave:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/…-says-ver/

I’m no fan of his constrictive, hysterically anti-inflationary policies which have contributed to mass unemployment in Southern Europe, but he has a point.

What’s coming out for anyone paying attention is that this is and always has been about the festering anger among certain Tories and ex-Tories that we ratified the Maastricht Treaty (never mind the fact that the extent to which we actually signed up for the things it brought in was very limited, and pretty much only the co-operation stuff on foreign policy and crime). They’re dressing it up with appeals to people who they themselves have spent forty years screwing over, and with this weird delusion that our sovereignty is actually under threat (spoiler - it really isn’t hence the fact we can exercise it if we choose to leave).

I can understand hard left-wingers being engaged with the fact that despite the social and labour benefits, the EU and its forerunners have always been about promoting trade and capitalism, and I can understand why people left behind after structural change would be looking for someone to blame. That they’re being manipulated into thinking it’s all about immigration and somehow it will all be changed for the better if we leave is disgraceful, though.

Depsite the rhetoric I honestly don’t think the Brexit leaders, at least on the Troy side, really want to completely detach but instead want to roll back to pre-1992. The problem with Schauble’s intervention is that while it would be a factor for anyone politically and historically savvy enough to realise that was the underlying game plan, anyone thinking of voting to leave entirely for sovereignty or immigration reasons is just going to see a foreigner being aggressive and their views will be further entrenched. Especially when it gets spun that way by the pro-Brexit press.

I don’t blame him for saying it, though. The idea we would be welcomed to the table with open arms by people we have turned our backs on just when they could really do without the hassle is extraordinarily disingenuous.

My instinct is that, regardless of the polls at the moment, we’ll scrape through with a Bremain. Much like the Scottish Referendum, people generally chicken out for the status quo once they get into the polling booth.

It’s unlikely to be conclusive enough to neuter UKIP or Farage though, which is a shame.

No, and it won’t stop the arguments rolling on elsewhere, either.

The one thing it might do…maybe…is spur better focus in Westminster on those left behind over the last forty years (who am I kidding?) and incentivise Brussels to start thinking more about it’s broader based appeal. When I was growing up, the interaction with the EEC/EC was about increasing rights, protections and fairness, and funding opportunity. Now, I know it has a firefight on its hands, but they need to start finding more time to emphasise those qualities again.

ETA: That the campaigns have singularly failed to create basic accurate perceptions is a real indictment of this whole process, and of education in this country in general. I am not a fan of referenda and this last few months hasn’t changed my mind on that one little bit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/pol…74311.html

The Union isn’t an a la carte proposal. If everyone gets to pick and choose which rules apply to them it will end up an even more difficult effort. And it’s already epically hard.

It’s all or nothing.