ANot one.
The likes of Donald Trump, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, that cunt Hamilton and Jim fucking Davidson seem to think it’s a good idea.
I was listening to the radio and an old dear was passionately stating why we should leave Europe and her primary reason was because she “lost four relatives to two World Wars.” Nothing from the ‘Leave’ camp has been any more illuminating.
What am I missing?
Full disclosure: I’m an idiot, politically speaking… among other topics.
AWell, Trump didn’t know what Brexit was. Why anyone thinks it’s a good idea to ask this twat who wants to build a wall and let someone else pay for matters such as these is a mystery.
Apart from not having to pay money to the EU i’m not sure what exactly it’s gaining by basically excluding itself from the rest of Europe.
AI can understand concerns about unwieldy beurocracy but Leave pretty much seems like backwards-looking little Englander nationalist nonsense to me, I’m hoping sanity prevails.
AYes. One old chap boldy claimed he was “English, not German.”
Honesty isn’t typically the defining trait of a politician but the Leave campaign seem to be outright lying in their attempts to bend people’s fear toward their agenda. Boris’ bullshit “£350 million a week” nonsense is a wonderful example.
And it’s close. It’s not dissimilar to the circus happening in America. The loudest guy in the room drowns everyone and everything out.
Well the UK has always been standoffish about integrating into the EU. And now, with the Syrian Refugee Crisis (which is really a wholesale movement of people south of the Equator moving north), and the EU’s seeming helplessness to deal with the situation, plus the bureaucratic red tape from Brussels, plus Mario Dragi’s crazy strategy of trying to scare the economy into a recovery, I understand why people might want to go their own way.
Trouble is, if they do so, right off the bat there are a couple hundred trade agreements that will need to be re-done from scratch, the UK’s place as a major Finance center (or centre as they say in the UK) will be seriously threatened, and the benefits of immigration will diminish as the UK is perceived to be a bad place to be (sort of how net immigration along the US/Mexico border has actually reversed. Yes, more Mexicans are leaving the US to go back to Mexico vs. the other way around).
I think Cameron screwed himself with this vote: when he orginally called for it years ago, I’m sure he thought it would placate the hard liners in his party while not resulting in anything. Now it looks like it could go against, or be a close vote. Either result would show a loss of confidence in his leadership and he’d probably step down.
Having control of our borders again would certainly be nice.
AIt’s essentially an attempt at a synthetic coup. There are no good reasons because right now there is no good reason, no real motivation, no actual threat. The whole thing is manufactured to placate a nationalist and populist minority whose only real threat was to one party.
Let’s look at the arguments.
We already retain sovereignty in the sense we have referendum locks on treaty changes, EU law is incorporated into our legal system through ordinary legislation capable of repeal through simple majority in Parliament, we can activate article 50 TEU through exercise of Crown prerogative entirely within the hands of the sitting government (I think, and even if not, again it’s a question of simple majority in Parliament). The sovereignty argument is specious and there are no, none, zero existential or material threats to the UK arising from Europe that require us to activate that sovereignty.
We’ve benefited from the single market as a nation. The only laws we’re subject to that we don’t have total control over are those that ensure the existence of the single market. All of them help reduce cost as much as they increase it. They are pretty much cost neutral but the access to the single market is the benefit we wouldn’t otherwise have ; unless you buy the argument we’ll just skip into a brand new deal of equal balance. About which I have zero confidence.
I hesitate to give immigration arguments the time of day because they absolutely are rooted in xenophobia, racism and nationalism, three political cancers that the founders of the EU and all the other multilateral organisations that sprung up post WW2 knew better than to believe they could cure but knew well enough they had to be neutralised. People complaining about threats to jobs, housing, healthcare and education are victims of domestic policy failures, not the marginal differences made by a relatively small number of immigrants who on average pay their taxes and don’t use social or health services.
Plus, you know what, there is no sound logical reason why you should pay more for services because one bidder is of the same nationality as you. It’s inefficient, wasteful and nonsensical. Those who have been impacted, and I mean only those affected through no fault of their own, should have been subjected to investment and help, not just left to rot and then had their situation manipulated and their misplaced anger pandered to. Oh, and that’s not even taking into account the fact that most socially beneficial law introduced in the UK over the last 40 years has come from Europe. Equal pay? Protection against unfair dismissal? Consumer rights? Safer products? Greater transparency and protection for investments? Fairer procurement for government contracts? Abolition of unfair national industrial and commercial discrimination? Yep, all from Europe.
I’ve eavesdropped on early discussions among cornerstone investors in the UKIP/Brexit project and their only interest is rolling back the social and labour progress Britain has been rightly strongarmed into accepting over the last 40 years. Everything else is dogwhistling and button-pressing aimed at the ignorant, the underprivileged, the poorly served and the bigoted. My fear is that, in a country where education policy could almost be said to have been designed to create the narrowest minds and the smallest horizons possible and nearly a third are prepared to acknowledge their racism explicitly, that is a dangerous and powerful coalition.
Ultimately what riles me the most is that our allies, our trading partners and our friends are grappling with existential issues such as migration, economic crisis, and terrorist threat, cooked up and fomented with a cupful of populism less interested in long term thinking than short term revenge. And what are we planning to do? Shaft them even more by giving them an existential headache to deal with, taking up time, effort and resources from solving the real problems Europe currently faces and could overcome with concerted effort if only its constituent members weren’t so threatened with and distracted.
And we’re expecting constructive dialogue from people we’ve not only let down but pushed further into the muck. Yeah right. We’re expecting others to do long term trade deals with us after we’ve just torn one up? Yeah right. We’re expecting investors to treat us as a safe harbour, political risk neutral nation and a bridge to Europe? Yeah right.
It pisses me off on a moral level and a practical one.
We may stay in and I will breathe a sigh of relief. I’ve never felt such existential panic about a political decision before though. I understand completely what it might feel like being a US citizen and thinking that Trump stands a decent chance of becoming President.
AI think they should do it so they can go back to having confusing currency that no foreigner understands. It’s a quintessential part of the British national identity.
A[quote name=“MrSaxon” url=“/community/t/155548/i-havent-heard-a-single-compelling-reason-for-britain-to-leave-the-eu#post_4077955”]
Having control of our borders again would certainly be nice.
[/quote]
Why?
A[quote name=“commodorejohn” url=“/community/t/155548/i-havent-heard-a-single-compelling-reason-for-britain-to-leave-the-eu#post_4077966”]I think they should do it so they can go back to having confusing currency that no foreigner understands. It’s a quintessential part of the British national identity.[/quote]
Thankfully, so far, the Leave campaign isn’t advocating the return of the shilling, the tanner and the ha’penny.
I have no idea if you’re joking.
jhp1608 is my new favourite person.
Saxon, borders go both ways. As soon as my French is good enough to work with I’ll be living in France. Maybe I’ll pop over the border to drink amazing Belgian beers on the weekend. Or neck Rioja by the bucketful down south. Border control is about fear. Bollocks to that.
AWhat the EU did to exploit Greece’s economic woes was naked piracy. No sovereign country should be saddled with a currency whose value the government can’t control. That’s why the US abandoned the gold dollar and adopted fiat currency during the Depression of the 1930’s.
A[quote name=“MrSaxon” url=“/community/t/155548/i-havent-heard-a-single-compelling-reason-for-britain-to-leave-the-eu#post_4077972”]
I have no idea if you’re joking.
[/quote]
No, I’m not. Do you really feel under threat? From whom?
I’m more worried about wannabe gangstas from Bradford.
A[quote name=“Reasor” url=“/community/t/155548/i-havent-heard-a-single-compelling-reason-for-britain-to-leave-the-eu#post_4077975”]What the EU did to exploit Greece’s economic woes was naked piracy. No sovereign country should be saddled with a currency whose value the government can’t control. That’s why the US abandoned the gold dollar and adopted fiat currency during the Depression of the 1930’s.[/quote]
No-one arguing the remain case is saying the EU is perfect. We just don’t think it’s reason enough to leave. Unless you’re arguing for secession for your state given how brutal the Washington regime can be?
AVoters in my state have lawful means to hold my national government accountable. Unless British voters have more say in Angela Merkel’s next reelection bid than I’m aware of, it’s apples and oranges.
Do you get to vote for the leaders of neighbouring states?
AEuropean electorates elect members of the European Council of Ministers and the European Parliament, as well as their national governments that exercise more than residual sovereignty, so I’m not buying it’s quite so unaccountable. Besides we’re not members of the Eurozone. What the managers of the single currency feel like they have to do to keep it whole is a matter for which their populations can make them accountable, a matter for which we have only indielrect attachment and a matter which we won’t have influence over if we leave. Frankly, to move it on a bit, the Eurozone would a lot better if we achieved proper political and fiscal union, and that won’t happen whilst recalcitrant nationalists keep driving their stakes into the ground and stringing their arrows. No-one hamstrung the Eurozone more than British refusal to press ahead with integration.
I might have overstretched on the constitional analogy, but the point remains. Displeasure about how the EU has conducted itself isn’t a material argument in the debate and not a good enough or important enough reason to leave when weighed against the benefits of staying involved and the risks of leaving.
A[quote name=“Reasor” url=“/community/t/155548/i-havent-heard-a-single-compelling-reason-for-britain-to-leave-the-eu#post_4077980”]Voters in my state have lawful means to hold my national government accountable. Unless British voters have more say in Angela Merkel’s next reelection bid than I’m aware of, it’s apples and oranges.[/quote]
Or to put my response another way, I’d much rather be in the position voters in your state are in, in as direct a fashion as they are. I’d love to have the same currency as my French neighbours, as part of a union of political, economic and fiscal nature, and in return I’d love to have a direct say in all aspects of how the EU is run. It will be a better place to live, love and prosper. My point is that I want to be part of that and that is materially less likely to happen if the country I am a citizen of leaves.
Of course, had I paid more attention in Mod. Lang. at school perhaps I’d be able to set sail to Europe and wish my nationalist, xenophobic, narrow minded fellow citizens goodbye, whilst being welcomed by the tens, if not hundreds of millions I feel more kinship with on mainland Europe.
The scariest thing? The benefits of being part of Europe, open from Brussels in theory to all since I was a welfare-raised kid with a brain and a work ethic; grants, bursaries, work opportunities, and educational chances; have been restricted as a matter of national economic and social policy in exercise of those sovereign rights Brits seem so proud to claim as their own. Bad education, health, housing and social policy mean as a nation Britain hasn’t made the most of Europe for the benefit of all. Hardly likely to improve on that if we can’t be bothered to be involved any more, let alone the fact that those failings are now being trotted out as a reason to leave.