ALIEN series

I appreciate that all of the marines have a moment or two, but that’s all that they get, a single moment in a film. They are sketches of chracters, not characters (for the most part). I love Bill Paxton’s whiny bitch, but the rest with the exception of maybe Vasquez just feel like Xenomorph fodder from the get-go. They are all given a weird trait or a token line so that their deaths aren’t completely meaningless, but the film is not about the marines.

Look at something like The Dirty Dozen that has about as many soldier characters as Aliens, but then look at how much we know about every member of the Dirty Dozen compared to what we know about the Colonial Marines. That’s the difference between a character-centered movie with lots of casualties and a movie with a lot of characters that are just set up to die. In the end, they are bit players in Ripley’s story. And yeah, the dialogue bugs me because it’s typical macho bullshit which never seems unique enough to be interesting.

Alien - A slow burning, atmospheric sci-fi/horror masterpiece and one of Scott’s best. Great performances from Sigourney Weaver, Yaphet Kotto, and Ian Holm (who almost always gets forgotten. He’s Ash, not Bilbo!). I don’t think I really have much to say about this that hasn’t already been stated. It’s a classic.

Aliens - In my opinion, just as “classic” yet vastly different than the first. Cameron realized that any attempt to recreate the original would just turn out as a lesser quality rehash. Instead he injected a completely different style into it. Great character work from Weaver, Lance Henriksen, Jeannette Goldstein, the underrated Michael Biehn, and the girl who played Newt, who’s name escapes me. Also loved the Alien Queen concept and the “hive” related story bits.

Alien 3 - While not as good as the first two, it’s damn close. I won’t criticize Fincher for killing off Newt and Hicks, but I WILL criticize the manner in which he did so. Killing them was necessary to completing Ripley’s isolation/lack of reason to live. However, they should have survived the crash and been killed by the alien itself. He owed the characters at least that much. Yeah, we would have had to recast the role of Newt, but it still would have been worth it to the characters. The destruction of Bishop was needed however. I absolutely love the mood and depressingly dark tone of the film. The look and style is wonderfully gothic. Good work from Weaver, Henrikson, Charles Dance, Brian Glover, Daniel Webb, and Charles Dutton. Perfect ending.

Alien Resurrection - Hmm. I have a small soft spot for this film. That aside, it’s just really damn weird. Very European Art Cinema-esque, which is not surprising considering who the director is (Jeunet). It contains a great group of actors and some really interesting concepts, but all are ill-used. One of those “could have been great” films. It is very visually stunning, however. Winona Ryder is out of her element and as stated somewhere above, some of the most interesting characters get a small amount of screen time or are killed off too soon. Killing Michael Wincott so early on is a big no-no. What I liked: Weaver, Ron Perlman, Dominque Pinon, Brad Dourif, Michael Wincott (in his "cameo"Wink, JE Freeman, and most of the concepts. Disliked: The look of the Alien hybrid (very un-Giger) and the entire execution of the project. Wasted potential.

Alien vs. Predator - At last we come to it. This is the single worst installment in either franchise and anyone who thinks differently is seriously delusional (Predator 2, while no classic, is very underrated). Continuity my ass. When this was given a PG-13 rating because the violence was supposed to be more “creature on creative” with non-red gore flying, though kinda silly, I accepted it because it kind of made sense. What doesn’t make sense is when you have 6 films of openly shown gory slayings, that almost all human deaths are done in cut away shots. First off, I don’t have a biased towards one species more than another because I loved both series equally. That said, the other two predators died WAY too quickly and easily in combat with a single alien. The Alien designs for this film were fine (although the Queen was WAY too big). The Predator designs were poor, especially in the faces. Now we come to acting. You can tell when an actor thinks that they are slumming it in a film and that is the vibe I was getting from Sanaa Lathan. I liked Colin Salmon and Lance Henriksen, but other than that, this is the worst cast of any series installment. Also, what’s with the complete and total redesign of the Predator ship interior? Again, continuity my ass. This film is even more wasted potential than Alien Resurrection, and I fear that even though it did very well, that it has buried both franchises instead of giving them a boost. I haven’t read a single thing about an AVP 2, Alien 5, or Predator 3 since this film was released. Not a good sign. While I am quite aware of how much time and effort Anderson put into making this film, none of his ideas are translated properly or are fully developed on screen. The execution is horrible. I bet Stan Winston is now glad that we wasn’t apart of this travesty.

While I know the long rumored Alien 5 dream project (Ridley Scott directing, with James Cameron writing) will never happen, I really hope that the series is not finished. I would love to see one final installment with Weaver as Ripley again. I am not too sure if the series would work without her involvement though (the Predator concept, however, has unlimited possibilities. Set in space, Ancient Epypt, Colonial times, Medievel Europe, etc.). I just hope our last theatrical memory of a new installment in each series is not of Anderson’s Alien vs. Predator. I would definately be willing to give an AVP 2 a shot as an alternative, if it actually had some talent in front of and ESPECIALLY behind the camera.

By the way, please explain to me WHY everyone has a hard on for giving Joss Whedon the reigns to the X-Men franchise. Now I’m not familiar with his comic works, but if his television projects are any clue this is a big HELL NO!!! I have not seen Firefly, so I cannot comment on that (and I’ll probably base my opinion of it off of Serenity when it comes out). I have, however, seen episodes of Buffy and Angel. What about those TV shows inspires anyone to let him loose on X-Men 3? Of course I am one of the people that’s of the mind that the only decent aspect of the Buffy/Angel media franchise is the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer film. And if none of that convinces anyone, look at Alien Resurrection. That’s Whedon’s answer to taking on a film franchise. That script was absolute shit! I blame the failure of Resurrection more on Whedon and the producers than on the director. Jeunet did his job in making a visually stunning film, it was the script that reeked. Don’t give me that “he should have vetoed it” crap. Somehow I think that if Jeunet had the clout to do such a thing, that it would have been done.

Alright, that’s it. My fingers are tired.

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By the way, please explain to me WHY everyone has a hard on for giving Joss Whedon the reigns to the X-Men franchise. Now I’m not familiar with his comic works, but if his television projects are any clue this is a big HELL NO!!! I have not seen Firefly, so I cannot comment on that (and I’ll probably base my opinion of it off of Serenity when it comes out). I have, however, seen episodes of Buffy and Angel. What about those TV shows inspires anyone to let him loose on X-Men 3? Of course I am one of the people that’s of the mind that the only decent aspect of the Buffy/Angel media franchise is the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer film. And if none of that convinces anyone, look at Alien Resurrection. That’s Whedon’s answer to taking on a film franchise. That script was absolute shit! I blame the failure of Resurrection more on Whedon and the producers than on the director. Jeunet did his job in making a visually stunning film, it was the script that reeked. Don’t give me that “he should have vetoed it” crap. Somehow I think that if Jeunet had the clout to do such a thing, that it would have been done.

Excellent post, S.D.! And a great summary/analysis of all 4 Alien films along with Anderson’s wannabe piece of sh*t. My only nitpick is your comment about Hicks and Newt’s death in ALIEN 3. Ripley could just have easily been isolated and weary of living by doing this:

Sulaco’s computer detects the queen embryo inside Ripley so upon following hidden Company Emergency Override Protocols, it ejects Ripley’s hypersleep tube into the EEV and depositis her onto the nearest planet - Firiona. The Sulaco continues onward with Newt and Hicks unharmed and ready for possible further adventures. Meanwhile, Ripley awakens alone, thinks the ship’s been destroyed (because that’s the only reason she knows that the EEV would have been launched) and her friends dead from the fire. Now THAT would have been a real mindfuck, while also not irreperably damaging the franchise.

As for Whedon directing, S.D., I’m 1000% in agreement with you on that. What works for Buffy/Angel doesn’t necessarily work for Alien or Xmen. However, as for the script sucking, check out this thread:

http://chud.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69813

Read posts #22- 24, and #28 in particular. I’m curious to see what your opinion is.

AVP is ripped into because geeks hate Anderson. So much so that the desperately search for reasons to dislike the film, the funniest of which is the PG-13 rating. With the exception of the chestbuster sequence featuring Bova - which is kinda hard to get around the idea that the buster rips through his chest and comes out clean, however the Predator’s reaction is classic so I can forgive it - the lack of gore doesn’t hurt the film in any way.

Anderson’s biggest folly was setting the film on Earth, which is nothing more than his ego talking. The fanboy inside him getting off on the idea that he was the one who brought the alien ‘home.’

As far as the Antarctica thing…yes, the predators prefer to hunt in tropical climates. Then again this is a ‘male rite of passage’ for a bunch of ‘teen’ predators who are dropped into an extremely hostile environment without most of their weapons…so one could say they did it on purpose. Course Dark Horse also had them in artic conditions in the comics as well.

Now the ‘Bullet-time’ facehuggers, sped up incubation period, and lackluster characters…those are all him.

But saying it’s a worse film than Resurrection is just plain silly…

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Originally Posted by Striding Cloud Django But saying it’s a worse film than Resurrection is just plain silly…

Yeah I’d go with that. At least AvP had some kind of consistancy even if it was shit.

I can’t say I’m andersons biggest advocate (Resident evil was utter dog egg, Event Horizon was The Shining in space but without the skill) but I dont hate AvP because of him, more because he has done nothing to help the franchises. He simply cashed in with “Cool” sequences and “Cool” ideas, but he didnt return the scariness of the title monsters at all… instead opting to just appease the fanboy in him and hoping that there’d be enough people out there like him, who would discard internal logic set up by the previous movies and discard them in favour of getting to the “cool” bits ASAP!

The logic of ALIEN with the speed of the alien’s development… gone
The fact that the ALIEN takes on certain characteristics of its host… gone (they all walked around Alien3 fashon)
The fact that the first three films were about the humans battling unknown and that character matters otherwise you dont give a shit who gets eaten… gone (especially with the french guy who was just mr exposition "ahh it all makez zenze nawwww"Wink
The fact that the Alien could easily knock a human around… gone (as Ripley lite skewers one of them managing not to get sprayed with acid oops forgot about that eh?)

And so on… So if Anderson has done anything to incur fanboy wrath I think its more the fact that he’s done NOTHING but devolve the Alien and the Predator even further from their original scary roots…

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Originally Posted by Striding Cloud Django It also had four good sequences: The opening montage, which was pieced together in the editing room. The Funeral/Birth sequence, which Charles S. Dutton owns. The Third Act ‘God never gave me nuthin’ motivational speech of Dillion’s. And the finale, minus the whole ‘I’m not a fuckin’ droid!’ bit.

Don’t forget Ripley’s suicidial confrontation with the Alien ("just do what you do"Wink followed by asking Dillion to kill her. Pretty powerful couple of scenes.

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Originally Posted by Kreeper http://chud.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69813 Read posts #22- 24, and #28 in particular. I curious to see what your opinion is.

That was fairly interesting. Since I haven’t actually read the unmarred Alien 4 screenplay(s) of Joss Whedon, I guess that I cannot give a full critique, but I will say this: If his original script was nothing but what is on film plus thoses deleted scenes listed in that forum, while it would have made it better, it still would not have saved that film. The producers screwed that movie many times over (turning down Cronenberg’s request of full creative control after offering it to him was one of them). If Cronenberg had been given that Whedon script we would have had a better film, because a lot of it is definately made up of a lot of his tastes. Point is, it was fucked.

Again I ask, has anyone read ANYTHING regarding a sequel to this franchise in any form (be it AVP 2 or Alien 5) since Alien vs. Predator came out? Last time I checked, AVP had only made about 30 million in the US past its budget. I’m not sure about worldwide. Apparently it sold almost 2 million copies on Tuesday though, so I guess it is conceivable that they were waiting for a look at DVD grosses before making up their minds. Fox has had two big missteps when it comes to this franchise. Let’s hope that if they decide to continue it (and the Predator one) that they begin to make some better directorial choices and decide to step back from controlling it a bit. Not likely though.

I still wish Fincher would have made an appearance in the Alien 3 documentaries in the Quadrilogy set. I would really like to get a full, straight opinion from him on what he had originally conceived, what turned out on film, and what he still thinks of the whole experience (which I guess is a little obvious since he declined to participate). It would have been interesting.

I just got through watching the Director’s Cut of Alien3. I had a few observations regarding the film:

First off, it is a much stronger film than I remember it being. Even with my previous post, and my defense of it, I enjoyed it quite a bit this evening, more so than in the past. It felt like a more complete film in this incarnation.

Secondly, I felt that the characterizations present in the Director’s Cut (Golic in particular) added depth to the picture and answered a criticism that is often levied against Alien3, which is we’ve got a bunch guys runnign around that we don’t know or care about. I cared about Golic, remembered Murphy’s name, etc. Also, while the prayer and speech sequences may have started to get repititious, it added even more depth to the prisoners as a unit. They had routines in those prayers, and they sought solace in them.

Third, the removal of the dog sequence and the inclusion of the ox sequence I felt carried much more weight. I always sort of felt that the dog-burster was a bit contrived and existed almost to pull on the heart strings of dog lovers. Plus the shot of Murphy holding up the facehugger in the background was great.

Fourth, Fincher has great control of the camera in this film. From the Alien vision shots on the ceiling to the Alien peeking around a corner behind an inmate up above in the air vent, he brings us in and holds on. I think my favorite shot, be it intentional or not, is when the aspect ratio changes so drastically as the flare is floating slow motion into the spilled bucket of nitro. What a great shot. Also, when the Alien pulls Abbot up into the air duct of the mess hall, the camera is set low, pans left across the prisoners as they get into a defensive position and pick up chairs, and his ball drops into the pool of blood. Then Morse shouts “FUCK!” Exactly.

Fifth, and my favorite : the bobbing water bird thing on Abbot’s desk. Same one from the dining table in the Nostromo. Great.

Just my thoughts. Since htis thread started, I decided that I would re-visit each of the films soon and throw my thoughts out there for discussion. Aliens tomorrow!

LATER

P.S. I love how the Queen burst during the furnace dive was excised! Thank christ!

SOunds like we’ve still got a good discussion going here. Stay Frosty, and alert!

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Originally Posted by J.M. PRATER ALIENS isn’t at all a bad film, it was just obvious and far more peripheral than the first film and brought the mythologuy to this comic book slash americana patriotism that I don’t care for.

Decrying the “patriotic macho bullshit” of Aliens without mentioning the rest of the story, completely misses the irony of what Cameron was doing structurally with the piece. He obviously was methodically and comically playing up the Marines in the first half of the narrative, to ultimately juxtapose it with the actual true heroes of the tale:

A little girl, a “kind” (almost effeminate) android, a marine in touch with his feminine side, and a woman/surrogate mother

That’s as far away as you can get from the macho Reagan style heroics of the 80s action films, which those wiseass marines were obviously commentating on.

Rambo, it ain’t.

"Aliens’’ (and all Cameron films for that matter) are really be about the triumph of femininity. The “testosterone charged” showboating didn’t mean dick by the half way point of the film. It basically came down to a mother rescuing her child from the Queen she-beast of the universe. A very human tale of survival with a STRONG feminist subtext. It’s why the 3rd act is so primal and emotionally-charged. It completely subverts the Rambo mystique so carefully laid out during the first half of the narrative. The flick stood out in it’s decade because of that element. It was specifically designed to break ranks with the genre flicks of the day (excepting "The Terminator"Wink. Cameron was inspired by Ridley’s “surprise” story element of having the female the lone survivor of the yarn (swiped from the Horror genre). But he went further with his treatise by making Ripley’s character that much more real, 3 dimensional, and yes-----FEMININE. It upped the stakes in terms of subtext.

The tale ultimately came down to a mother’s journey, so far away from the tough talking marine showboating during the first half of the picture. Heck, the only marine who survives with Ripley and Newt is the one set up as decidedly un-Marine-like. Ripley, Newt, Hicks and Bishop are the survivors and characters you root for - not the larger-than-life marines of the first half. Never forget that when you segregate the “kick ass marine element” as the heart of the film. Because it aint’. The film is about more than that.

Much more.

I will say that Alien did not need a sequel. It was singular vision which concluded it’s tale brilliantly (especially if you include the deleted cocoon sequence, completing the “perfect organism’s” circuitous lifecycle). Cameron was commisioned to come up with a continuation to that story. What we got was another visionary director giving his take on the mythos through a plausible elaboration of the 1979 movie. But there was no point making a pale imitation of Scott’s precise vision. He was definitely crafting a James Cameron movie.

You have to remember that Scott’s evocation and treatment of the creature was predicated by a genre he had chosen to transport to the Sci-fi realm. Placed in an utterly believable futurescape with banal characters making it even more real, it was basically the killer from “Halloween” pegging off the victims from the shadows. The claustrophobia and paranoia conjured on the Nostromo by this sleek force of nature, had about as much to do with following the rules of a particular genre as it did because the star beast was a meticulously designed and executed fictionalized organism.

Cameron was not making a “haunted house in space” any longer. Different dynamics were in order.

Ha! great image, Mecha (I still have that issue)!

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But there was no point making a pale imitation of Scott’s precise vision. He was definitely crafting a James Cameron movie.

Which is why I dislike ALIEN 3 so much. Yes, it’s brilliantly shot. Yes, the acting is good…Yes, the new version improves the story…

But when all is said and done, it’s just 2 hours of Finver jerking off. It looks like it was made by someone who hadn’t even seen the first two films. Having bald, mostly British guys picked off one by one is just boring – I don’t care how good the acting is! Also, it takes too long for the characters to get up to speed ("there’s a creature on the loose?"Wink when the audience is already waaaay ahead of them.

The brilliant thing about Cameron’s film was that he brought you up to date in an entertaining way (through chracter), regardless of whether or not you’d seen ALIEN. Even ALIEN RESSURECTION, with all it’s problems, did a better job. Fincher requires that you totally ignore any and all logic from the first two films (how the hell did an egg get on board - the Queen had no eggsack). He then gives us a lame retread of

And thejumbo, while all the stuff your mentioning is good and nice, I think you (and a lot of ALIEN 3 apologists) are confusing visually appealing aesthetics and meloncholy mood lighting for story content. The former doesn’t make a quality film (if it did, Michael Bay would have several Oscars), the latter does. Cameron gave us both.

Again, I’m not saying the new cut isn’t an improvement – it is. But all the fancy camera angles, death themes, and shadows in the world don’t mean Jack if you don’t have a decent story. And, IMHO, not only does ALIEN 3 not have one, (we’d seen it done as good or better by Scott), it ignores several important points set up by ALIEN and ALIENS.

To me, that’s bad storytelling.

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Originally Posted by Kreeper Having bald, mostly British guys picked off one by one is just boring

uhm, is your problem with them that they are bald, or that they are british? personally, i would have filled the prison with samoans: there’s no film that can’t be improved by a well-delivered haka, IMHO.

I am an alien resurrection apologist I am afraid as I found it to be one of the more interesting of the series and I think that as visual technician Jeunet can not be beaten. While the movie does have some glaring flaws, namely the somewhat inspid way Ripley’s change was handled and the melted face antics of the hybrid I actually think the film has a lot going for it and despite these two quite horrendous oversights still retains some charm.

The thing for me is that I am a fan of the graphic novelisation of the series and to me it felt like a wonderful interpretation of their kinetic style. The plot was also something of an oddity meshing ideas of genetics and eugenics but not really looking into the actual damage caused other than the ‘auschwitz’ scene which itself was fairly terrible, more like ‘Event Horizons’ grossness than a moving piece of film. But then you have the undertones of the film, the gothic set design, the cast of characters who for the most part aren’t superfluous and are introduced just enough so you actually care about them. Then of course you have the critters out in the open which while elevating some of their power does allow you to see them working at full force, the alien sliding into the escape pod is a favourite scene of mine.

I think that Joss Whedon having a go at Jeunet for making an awful film is pretty pissy actually as Jeunet seems to be forced to direct with his hand tied behind his back. If anything I think this film would have benefited from some of the kinetic (yeah I know) humour of City of Lost Children and Delicatessen (which itself was a far more macabre film than Alien 4). Yet despite this the film still works on a fundamental level and despite my extreme grievances with the white alien, I am sure it screams “oh no” when getting dragged through the window it is actually a stronger film than most people give it credit for.

Nuke Every single copy of Ressurection from Orbit… It’s the only way to be safe.

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I think that Joss Whedon having a go at Jeunet for making an awful film is pretty pissy actually

It was VERY pissy. That script blew ass. Terribly. Contrived, cliched…it was fucking fan fiction. Even in it’s “Purest” form that Kreeper is referencing, the script was garbage.

IT ENDED WITH FLYING FARM MACHINERY.

they land on earth and FLYING FARM MACHINERY takes out the newborn.

I have not told a single person about that proposed ending without them either rolling their eyes or doing a spit-take.

Juenet did what he could, but he was definitely handicapped. Plus, he didn’t really know what the fuck he was directing it for anyway, as he admitted on the DVD.

Why does no one talk about the one reason that Alien 3 is so heavily flawed? They make an inexcusable, illogical mistake from the very beginning of the film. The very FACT that an egg was on the Sulaco in the first place is one of the most contrived and idiotic choices that was made. If you watch Aliens you can see that there was no way for it to get there. There was absolutely NO way that an egg could have gotten there. Everything that follows in that movie and Alien Resurrection comes from this horrible idea. There are a thousand different ways the alien could have been introduced into the movie, and they just HAD to go with the one that made the least sense.

On top of that, the facehugger seems to infect both the dog/ox and Ripley? No way.
The alien hatches completely formed with all its limbs, etc? No way.

There are certain aspects of Alien 3 that are interesting: the tone, shot construction, the cinematography. But the fact that it starts out of the gate with such a jarring mistake and continues to make more leads me to ignore the entire series following Aliens. AVP is dismissed for the same reasons. Science Fiction is the ONE genre where coherent, believable rules should not be ignored to provide an exciting story. Especially if you are following someone else’s work with your own sequel you need to PAY ATTENTION to what the previous filmmaker established and interpret it logically. I’m frankly kind of tired of filmmakers not caring enough about the franchise they are participating in (especially Sci-Fi) to tell logical stories. It’s not like it can’t be good if it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Kreeper And thejumbo, while all the stuff your mentioning is good and nice, I think you (and a lot of ALIEN 3 apologists) are confusing visually appealing aesthetics and meloncholy mood lighting for story content. The former doesn’t make a quality film (if it did, Michael Bay would have several Oscars), the latter does. Cameron gave us both.

Good point. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no Alien3 apologist. I enjoy the film, and enjoyed it more last night. I do feel that the presence of the egg(s) is not sufficiently explained, and I was thinking that out loud last night. But, I look at that film (director’s cut) like I look at a Calculus problem. It has many, many steps, and there is a possibility of error at each one. Let’s say you goof up in the very first step, but carry the equation out correctly till the end. You get a wrong answer, but almost all of your work is correct. The teacher will give you partial credit, and that’t what I’m doing here. I agree that the story is not as strong as Alien or Aliens, but it does tread some new and interesting ground. While I share your disappointment, when taken in the bigger picture, it isn’t bad - in fact, it’s far from it. Just go to AVP for that.

And if you see my original post (Post #17), you’ll see my love for Cameron. That film occupies the highest echelon in my movie queue. Unconditional love, flaws and all.

LATER

I can answer one of those lingering Alien 3 problems. Originally it was NEWT who was facehugged during cyro-sleep. When the EEV crashed into Fury 161, she drowned and the barely functioning queen fetus crawled out of her mouth and into Ripley’s. That’s why she was complaining about her throat.

The scene was in the script, ADI built the full-sized queen fetus puppet but they never filmed the scene (so most people say). If you read either the novelization (better yet listen to the book on tape edition, it’s read by Lance Henriksen!) or the Dark Horse comic it’s in both.

But the Alien 3 that should have happened was the William Gibson draft. Newt heads for Earth, Ripley’s in a coma leaving Hicks and Bishop to carry on the fight with some Space Russians in an analogy for the ending of the cold war.

Speaking of Rambo…anyone ever read Cameron’s Rambo script?

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Originally Posted by Striding Cloud Django Speaking of Rambo…anyone ever read Cameron’s Rambo script?

Yeah, very different from Stallone’s rewrite.

Here’s what Cameron said about it:

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“I was trying to create a semirealistic, haunted character, the quintessential Viet Nam returnee, not a political statement.”

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“The action’s mine…the politics his”

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Originally Posted by Jubei The very FACT that an egg was on the Sulaco in the first place is one of the most contrived and idiotic choices that was made. If you watch Aliens you can see that there was no way for it to get there.

At the end of the credits for ALIENS, Cameron put in the sound of a facehugger running across the floor.