ALIEN series

FILM The Franchises
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Being the Alien nut that I am I have to give my 2 cents, and believe me, that’s all it is.

I guess I’m a born optimist but I firmly believe the series can be redeemed in one last film. I really believe that. I also believe that the last Alien story can involve Ripley. I realize most people believe that the character of Ripley is tired and I think in her current status, she’s more than tired. Ripley didn’t do much in AR except for look scary. I think back to the days prior to AR, all the hype, seeing sneak peak photos, I was so hopeful. Anyways.

I think ALIEN & ALIEN3 are both masterpieces save for the awful Amalgamated Dynamic effects in Alien3. The point of the the original story was character, character, character. Real, real, real. I’ll agree with the above poster that James Cameron took a turn for the cartoon worst in ALIENS. No doubt I enjoy the film, but there’s something a little to “kick ass” about the film for my tastes.

I would love an alien film that returned to darkness, absolute darkness where the creature has returned to the shadows and is scarely seen. I would also love the creature design to really take on H.R. Giger’s fleshy bio mechanical feel. I think that creatively, AvP was a step in the right direction regarding the alien creature design.

The above aside I would love to see realism, real characters who are actually believably terrified by the creature. The scene in AR where Call & co. come upon the creature for the first time was so ridiculous. Hollywood has always had a difficulty displaying real fear. I like what Gore Verbinski did with The Ring, that visceral reality, it’s a little to stylized for the alien world but it [for me] was truly scary. Remember the face of the girl found in the closet? That is scary shit.

Concerning Ripley, I believe that she has an interesting role but she needs to do something, something worthwhile. Ripley’s character really grew leaps and bounds in ALIENS because she was really doing something. Much like in ALIEN3, in ALIENS, Ripley is pushed into a leadership role. For the record I love that Fincher shit all over Cameron’s vision. James Cameron makes movies, David Fincher makes actual films. There’s not a subtle bone in Cameron’s creative body. But back to Ripley. I would love to explore her psychosis in her current state, what the effects of cloning is doing to her emotionally, physically and so on. I realize that other people aren’t interested in this and they’d rather be through with her.

It boils down to doing the seemingly impossible, and that is making the creature scary again. How can that be done? Can that be done? I believe it can be. There is a great little bit in ALIENS when the gang is waiting for the aliens to breach the perimeter. Hudson is taking sensor readings and it shows that the creatures should be inside the room. After a few moments Hicks looks up, that is scary, psychologically scary. The Exorcist was scary not because of how the little girl looked so much but what she said, how she said it.

I have hope. I wish Fox would give someone a crack at a new script [choose me ] I believe there’s still life in the bitch yet.

J.M. Prater

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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.M. PRATER James Cameron makes movies, David Fincher makes actual films. There’s not a subtle bone in Cameron’s creative body.

Actual films? What does that mean? David Fincher is not subtle. Panic Room was worse than any of James Cameron’s “movies”, and horribly written too.

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Admittedly, Panic Room was somewhat if not entirely ridiculous, a paycheck for Fincher.

Yes, James Cameron makes popcorn movies that, in my opinion are crafty as opposed to artistic. Fincher has more in Common with European directors and painters, his films are art. Cameron’s films are one dimensional summer blockbusters, he isn’t capable of anything else. Yes, Cameron is brilliant at what he does and his MOVIES are some of the most fun I’ve had in theaters. He has yet to show any sort of portfolio, he’s made the same kind of film over and over. I’d love him to make a small character driven piece. His next film, Battle Angel is again HUGE, HUGE, HUGE. Huge isn’t bad, it’s just obvious.

J.M. Prater

For the record, Fight Club, The Game, Seven work on so many different levels. I don’t worship the ground he walks on, absolutely not, but he’s actually a filmmaker with depth, something that the bankrupt world of Hollywood doesn’t even know how to spell. Also, I was at an advanced screening of Panic Room and when the time came to write what I thought about the film, its actors, etc… I unloaded my fury LOL, well, I wasn’t kind. There’s a lot that’s just mediocre in Panic Room, and that includes one of the worst performances by Jared Leto I have ever seen. He’s gorgeous and I’d sleep with him in a heartbeat but he was awful.

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ALIEN- One of the things I love about ALIEN is that it’s characters are so natural, and the dialogue is so effortless that it almost seems like there wasn’t a script at all. Granted, there’s not that much characterization, and no real arcs for any of the characters, but really, the audience doesn’t always need that. The crew of the Nostromo seemed like normal people, despite the setting. On top of that, it’s BEAUTIFUL. I don’t mind a movie being “slow” when it’s this well done.
ALIENS- This one is written all the way(lots of one-liners, etc). But it’s still great. On par with the 1st, but for totally different reasons. The action is great, the characters are memorable, and hey, I like Cameron’s films. While not a bad looking movie at all, this is the ugliest of the 4.
ALIEN3- Returns to the generally more natural dialogue of the 1st, even though many of the prisoners seem like carbon copies of each other(in look and in dialogue). Other than the killing of Newt and Hicks, it seemed like a big step backward after the blow shit up attitude of ALIENS, and I think that’s why a lot of people hate it. Not to mention none of the characters really have any redeeming qualities. The alien looks like bad CGI, amazing considering that it wasn’t CGI at all. The “director’s cut”(or whatever you want to call it) from the Quadrilogy is indeed a better movie, but not a better Alien movie. The change from dog to cow makes no sense at all though.
ALIEN:RESURRECTION- Looks great, but is shit. It seems like they tried to go back to Aliens and the “blow shit up” attitude but failed miserably. The dialogue is awful, Sigourney is terrible, Winona Ryder is terribly miscast, the hybrid alien is laughable at best, and none of the “jokes” work, oh and wait, there’s a sex scene? With aliens? Oh god what a terrible idea. Good one, producer Sigourney(she didn’t want guns in 3 either, so why are they back in 4?). Leland Orser still manages to be good in it, in fact he’s been good in everything I’ve seen him in. Give this guy more work somebody.
AVP- Saw it today, fucks up lots of basic ideas from the alien series(time from infection to adult alien, setting it on Earth… TODAY, making it basically bloodless, etc), but it’s really not that bad. Not that good either, but ten times better than Resurrection. There isn’t a single memorable character either. Despite some really stupid stuff… like the alien head as a shield, for instance. In fact all the beginning “team up stuff” with the Predator and the chick was pretty terrible. It made up for it with little unexpected things like the Predator snapping the baby alien’s neck, stuff like that. Overall it’s more entertaining than 3 and 4, but not as, well, “good” as 3. I don’t know if that makes any sense but oh well. It’s a much better follow-up for Predator fans than Alien ones.

Oh, if they make any more Alien flicks, keep Sigourney the hell away from them. Ripley died in Alien 3, and 4 never should have been made. It’s too bad Cameron and Scott got shot down in favor of AVP, but oh well. I don’t mean to dog on Weaver, she’s a great actress, and deserved the oscar nom for Aliens, it’s just, her ideas haven’t been all that hot as far as the direction of the “franchise”. I’m not even all that passionate about the series now, it’s just one of those vain hopes of seeing another GREAT Alien film.

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Have the ship at the end of A4 blow up as it aproaches earth. A group of scientist sent to find out what happened. The last records of the Bankrupt W&Y corp shows operation Prize. And the Planet Lv 426. Here they find a notebook of Ripley and what is going on. The Planet has become a dence and hot place muggy and what not. After a few survivers make it to there ship a Predator ship lands and the last scene is a spear going threw an Alien head

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee …some of the horror of the creature was the fact that by its nature in the first film it was very very alien… who knows how the eggs started off or where the creature came from?

actually, most of that is still a big question mark. cameron explained where the eggs came from, but that doesn’t answer the more interesting question: who brought the original eggs to LV-426 in the crashed spaceship? it can’t be the aliens themselves cause they don’t seem capable of operating such a machine (plus we see a skeleton of another creature inside the ship in the first film).

this could be compared to an alien race finding an ant colony on some abandoned colony in space: they could learn everything they needed about them, but the big mystery would still be finding out where they came from (earth) and who brought them there (humans).

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Originally Posted by J.M. PRATER I think ALIEN & ALIEN3 are both masterpieces save for the awful Amalgamated Dynamic effects in Alien3. The point of the the original story was character, character, character. Real, real, real. I’ll agree with the above poster that James Cameron took a turn for the cartoon worst in ALIENS. No doubt I enjoy the film, but there’s something a little to “kick ass” about the film for my tastes.

Alright, what’s going on here? Why is Aliens being singled out for criticism in the ‘film as art’ category? You make a point about character, you make a point about realism, Cameron’s characters he created in Aliens are some of the best-known characters in all movie history! Through casting, wardrobe, dialog, script, he set the stage for a bunch of actors to become a real team of marines - totally believeable in their attitudes, strengths, and perhaps more importantly, their weaknesses. Yes they are different to the characters in one and three, but that is due to the different natures of the films. One and Three are bleak movies, about survivors hanging on. Two is the opposite, about taking the fight to the creatures first, therefore the characters will obviously have a different focus. But that different focus doesn’t then give you license to dismiss them as ‘cartoonish’. Aliens, too, is a masterpeice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.M. PRATER James Cameron makes movies, David Fincher makes actual films. There’s not a subtle bone in Cameron’s creative body

What? If Cameron isn’t ‘subtle’, then neither is Fincher.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Jones Aliens, too, is a masterpeice.

I’m not defending anything in the series as a masterpiece, but Aliens is certainly not a masterpiece of anything more than pulpy fun. The characterization of the marines is downright laughable. I cringed through most of the dialogue whenever people with guns are on the screen, but it’s still a fun action movie. It’s a movie that turned a single film into a bonafide franchise, but it’s a lot of guns and little brains which always seems a little disappointing. Masterpiece seems to get thrown around a lot in threads like this where it really doesn’t belong.

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Well, I think it’s a masterpeice, and if One and Three qualify, then so does Two.

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“If James Cameron isn’t subtle than neither is Fincher” Where is the logic to back that up?

Cameron is the master of big huge, where as Fincher seems to know how to work emotionally, lyrically and psychologically. What I love about Alien 3 is that Fincher said “Fuck Newt & Hicks” and that takes some balls. I never believed that the ALIEN franchise was about mommy and daddy and happy endings. When fans read this stuff they seem to skip over the part when I say “I love ALIENS.” ALIENS is a great film for what it is, it’s just not subtle, it’s obvious and as fun as the marines are, the film ushered in the one-liners that Joss ‘hack’ Whedon tried to revive for the shit bomb known as Alien Resurrection.

I believe Ripley was at the top of her game in Aliens, I’ll even go so far as to say that there is brilliance in her character arc as written by Cameron, but ultimately, as aforementioned, the film is far too “kick ass” for me. “Kill em’ all, motherfuckin Aliens.” That’s the general take on the film as opposed to “I’m alone, I’m scared to death, what do I do” in ALIEN and somewhat in ALIEN3.

If anyone has ever seen The Game by David Fincher than I think you get my drift. BUT, this isn’t a cock size debate. Fincher does what he does and Cameron does what he does. I believe in the end, a film like Fight Club, Seven, & The Game will linger on in the minds of viewers as opposed to True Lies, The Abyss, and Titanic, films that are exactly what you seem them to be.

J.M. Prater

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Quote:
I never believed that the ALIEN franchise was about mommy and daddy and happy endings.

That’s exactly why I love ALIENS the most. And why I’m not the world’s biggest ALIEN 3 fan.

Quote:
the film is far too “kick ass” for me. “Kill em’ all, motherfuckin Aliens.”

Well, it was a commentary on Vietnam. Besides, the horror side was done already in ALIEN perfectly, so it was natural to take a different approach.

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Great lines and sweet little character moments however much fun don’t always add up to realism which is what the first ALIEN film was all about. ALIENS is clever, witty and action-packed for sure, and it’s fun, but I prefer quiet, sterile, and horror. The Aliens ceased to be thes intelligent organisms and became the beasts of StarShip Troopers.

J.M. Prater

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Oooooooh, so it was a commentary on Vietnam? Alright everything is okay now.

J.M. Prater

ALIENS isn’t at all a bad film, it was just obvious and far more peripheral than the first film and brought the mythologuy to this comic book slash americana patriotism that I don’t care for.

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Look deeper under the skin, it’s a lot more intelligent than you’re giving it credit for.

The thing is, ALIEN already nailed the horror. It’s like JAWS, that just ended up being remade over and over again and nothing changed. ALIEN 3 was the same. As much as I love Fincher, that flick suffered from Ridley envy, and none of it was scary, especially compared to ALIEN.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.M. PRATER Cameron is the master of big huge, where as Fincher seems to know how to work emotionally, lyrically and psychologically. What I love about Alien 3 is that Fincher said “Fuck Newt & Hicks” and that takes some balls. I never believed that the ALIEN franchise was about mommy and daddy and happy endings.

With respect, none of this is about subtlety. You stated clearly that Fincher is more’subtle’ than Cameron, I think you’re wrong, and the above doesn’t counter it. Emotionally, lyrically (?), psychologically - take a look at The Abyss, the two Terminator films, hell even Titanic (emotion city). As far as Aliens is concerned, the emotions are on full display - from the soldiers in a full-on Vietnam-esque stress combat situation to Ripley trying to combat her own demons while taking care of daughter-replacement Newt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.M. PRATER If anyone has ever seen The Game by David Fincher than I think you get my drift.

I love The Game, it’s one of my all time favourites, it’s brilliant. But again, it is not ‘subtle’, it’s a building cresendo of long-repressed emotion (something Michael Douglas does so well). Is it different to Cameron’s films? Yes of course it is. But I don’t believe it’s superior in terms of ‘emotions’ to the likes of Terminator or The Abyss. It’s a different ‘story’ (or a different focus - where Fincher focuses more on characters, Cameron focuses more on story), but the ‘craft’ (for lack of a better word) is equally genius.

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Originally Posted by coffnrock The marines in Cameron’s film are one of the strongest elements of that movie. I wanna shout out, “that’s a fact !” but I know from experience that can lead to trouble. But seriously, man, I just don’t see how we could have seen the same movie. The marines numbered, what, 11 or 12 maybe ? Almost all of them had a nice little character moment or two and of course, several of the marines became major characters as the film moved along. I thought they felt geniune as soldiers, the dialogue was technical when it needed to be, or it least it sounded technically correct to me, someone who is admittedly not into ordnance, guns and the like. The individual characters’ dialogue was spot on: Hudson’s “Quit messin’ around” when he was spitting down the levels of the station and another marine comes up behind him and gives him a little shove–I always thought that bit might have been improvised because Hudson’s reaction rang so true (of course, Hudson’s got a bunch of classic lines in the film). Apone and Vasquez and Drake all have terrific lines and I’ve always loved how the pilot of the drop ship (forget the name right now…Spunkmeyer, maybe) so nonchalantly delivers her “we’re Five by Five” line, she sounds like her character’s totally comfortable in her little world there as the pilot. I don’t really have a problem with your “pulpy fun” description of the movie, I just think it’s that and more and a classic thru and thru.

That’d be “Ferro.” (Almost typed "Frodo."Wink Spunkmeyer was the fat bald guy.

Off the top o’ me head, the marines who went sans “moments”: Crowe, and…um…Crowe.

Wierzbowski had his “AAAUUGGGGrrrHGGHHGHHHGrrGGGGHHHGGG.” Which counts. So there.

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Crowe’s moment was his three-second ‘oh shit’ face right before Frost’s bag with the ammo blew up.

Speaking of which…Frost. My favorite of the killed-too-quick supporting Marines. Man wanted some more Arturian Poontang, didn’t like the cornbread, and would have called your folks when you didn’t make it back.

How 'bout a moment of silence for My Man Frost.

Fincher’s Alien movie had four good characters: Dillion, which was all Charles S. Dutton. It wasn’t on the page, believe me. Clemens, who had that neat little medical malpractice bit of backstory and some good character scenes with Ripley. Morse, who was just a cool supporting convict. And Bishop II, who was interesting thanks to the resonance left from Cameron’s work.

It also had four good sequences: The opening montage, which was pieced together in the editing room. The Funeral/Birth sequence, which Charles S. Dutton owns. The Third Act ‘God never gave me nuthin’ motivational speech of Dillion’s. And the finale, minus the whole ‘I’m not a fuckin’ droid!’ bit.

However I do find it funny that we’re debating Cameron vs Fincher. Master of Cobalt Blue Filter vs Master of Piss Yellow/Puke Green Filter.

At least Cameron writes his own scripts. All I’m sayin’…

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Clinical proof positive that we’ve ALL officially lost it:

The Wierzbowski Online Shrine

(…and I do mean “all” in the lovingest possible way, of course…)

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I am an Alien 3 apologist. Always was. Even before the SE. Which DOES make the movie better.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Striding Cloud Django It also had four good sequences: The opening montage, which was pieced together in the editing room. The Funeral/Birth sequence, which Charles S. Dutton owns. The Third Act ‘God never gave me nuthin’ motivational speech of Dillion’s. And the finale, minus the whole ‘I’m not a fuckin’ droid!’ bit.

I couldn’t agree more however I think Fincher does a real nice job with the last half than he did with the first. The moments you listed are highlights as is the numerous chases. I hated Alien 3 when I first saw it but I rewatched it on the Sci-Fi channel a few years back and grew to appreciate it in some measure. Dutton especially did some great, great work here and I always enjoy his performance. Also Goldenthal’s score is really good.

I agree on Aliens however I really respect and like Alien. Then again I love Cameron and his films as well so..