I think this quote sums it up nicely.
“If you look at life like rolling a dice, then my situation now, as it stands - yeah, it may only be a 3. If I jack that in now, go for something bigger and better, yeah, I could easily roll a six - no problem, I could roll a 6… I could also roll a 1. OK? So, I think sometimes… Just leave the dice alone.” - Tim, The Office (UK)
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| Originally Posted by BorisTheCheese The only thing I can say is that with the economy we’re in if you have a good paying job w/benefits you keep it like it or not. For a lot of people, that’s the reality of life I guess. |
Yeah, but it’s not reality; it’s fiction! Your comment is pretty much the same as saying that Pam should have married Roy, because at least there’s financial security there, and he’s a nice enough guy. It would have been perfectly realistic, because there are certainly plenty of couples like Pam and Roy, but, again, this is fiction. You don’t root for things to turn out realistically for your protagonists, you root for them to turn out well, even if we derive some pleasure from bad things happening to them if only to see them persevere.
Some of you seem to get an unsettling and weird pro-corporate, pro-settling-for-less vibe from a show that’s a fairly nasty critique of both of these things.
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| Originally Posted by englebert I think this quote sums it up nicely. “If you look at life like rolling a dice, then my situation now, as it stands - yeah, it may only be a 3. If I jack that in now, go for something bigger and better, yeah, I could easily roll a six - no problem, I could roll a 6… I could also roll a 1. OK? So, I think sometimes… Just leave the dice alone.” - Tim, The Office (UK) |
Sure, but you want Tim to roll the dice. If not on the job, at least on Dawn. Just because a character says something doesn’t mean it’s the point that the writer is trying to make.
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| Originally Posted by englebert I think this quote sums it up nicely. “If you look at life like rolling a dice, then my situation now, as it stands - yeah, it may only be a 3. If I jack that in now, go for something bigger and better, yeah, I could easily roll a six - no problem, I could roll a 6… I could also roll a 1. OK? So, I think sometimes… Just leave the dice alone.” - Tim, The Office (UK) |
That may be true for him but for Stanley the roll is clearly a 1, 2 at best. He’s miserable. Not just discontented, miserable.
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| Originally Posted by DaveB Some of you seem to get an unsettling and weird pro-corporate, pro-settling-for-less vibe from a show that’s a fairly nasty critique of both of these things. |
I think you’re misunderstanding me then. I’m viewing it as a reality that a lot of people face. They don’t actually know that they can find a job that they love. So why mess up what they already have for something intangible. I just can’t agree that the point of the show is for them to escape. I feel like the employees put up with the boss precisely because they have no choice but to stomach it. Even Oscar, who was basically humiliated in front of the entire office, decided to come back.
EDIT: Pam is glaring exception of this, but I’m running off 4 hours of sleep and I do feel that this is the case for the majority of the employees.
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| Originally Posted by englebert I think you’re misunderstanding me then. I’m viewing it as a reality that a lot of people face. They don’t actually know that they can find a job that they love. So why mess up what they already have for something intangible. I just can’t agree that the point of the show is for them to escape. I feel like the employees put up with the boss precisely because they have no choice but to stomach it. Even Oscar, who was basically humiliated in front of the entire office, decided to come back. EDIT: Pam is glaring exception of this, but I’m running off 4 hours of sleep and I do feel that this is the case for the majority of the employees. |
I think you’re mistaking the reality of the show and our expectations of the show (obviously, we kind of don’t want the characters to escape, because it makes for good television) for our expectations and desires for the characters. It’s like I said way above - if you don’t get a gross feeling every time Jim contemplates promotion or engaging in any activity that further ties him to Dunder-Mifflin, your understanding of the show is waaaaaay different than mine to the point that conversation about it is kind of pointless. And if you do happen to agree with me on that point, I can’t see how you can argue in favor of it being a positive thing that he stays at that job.
BTW, our concern is with Jim and Pam. I don’t think we’re supposed to view the other employees in the same way. They’re not as well-drawn, and we don’t know their rationales for staying to the same degree, we don’t know how much of a charge they get out of working at Dunder Mifflin, etc. It seems to me that Stanley would be a bad argument for working there. He doesn’t like it much at all, despite his annual pretzel and occasional schaudenfreude. But we barely know anything about the guy. He’s background.
Ryan is the only other sympathetic character whose motivations were examined in the way that Jim and Pam’s were (to a lesser degree, though), and he’s gone down a path that we don’t want to see Jim travel down. The implied warning is that if you stick around and “succeed” at this sort of company, you’ll be corrupted.
I’m not sure what I said that makes you think that I view it as a positive situation. I was talking about the reality of the situation for better or for worse.
FACT: I love this show.
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| Originally Posted by DaveB Ryan is the only other sympathetic character whose motivations were examined in the way that Jim and Pam’s were (to a lesser degree, though), and he’s gone down a path that we don’t want to see Jim travel down. The implied warning is that if you stick around and “succeed” at this sort of company, you’ll be corrupted. |
I agree with pretty much everything else here, but I have to say I’ve never really found Ryan to be a sympathetic character beyond the first season. He started off in that position when he began work as the oft-abused temp, but once he took Jim’s job I think he already turned into a bit of an ass. I would agree that this development is clearly positioning him to be far more troublesome but was already inconveniencing Jim upon his return to Scranton.
I suppose it can be argued that we are to feel sympathetic for his desire to not lose the position he has gained in Jim’s absence, but this new development doesn’t strike me as surprising for the character nor tragic; it’s expected.
That said I feel I’m over analyzing a comedy and should add that I’m pretty damn excited for the new season. I’m glad it’s starting soon because without Lost I have little to look forward to on television this fall.
Ryan appears to be the guy who loses a little bit of his humanity every step up the ladder he takes. I felt for him season one and agree that once Jim came back from Scranton, Ryan was a dick. His break-up with Kelly at the end of last season was both hilarious and cruel. Ryan’s new dark suit, facial hair, “think I dated a black girl” personality is his next step into becoming a complete corporate asshole. He is big time now even if he never could make a sale.
I consider him to be the opposite of Michael who was damn good as a salesman, but was promoted beyond his ability, whereas Ryan is the"new blood" hotshot who never had to prove himself at anything. Neither will be a good manager this year I’m guessing, but Ryan will have his hands full with Michael.
How was it possible to feel for Ryan in season 1? It was a six episode season and not very much was detailed.
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| Originally Posted by EdHocken How was it possible to feel for Ryan in season 1? It was a six episode season and not very much was detailed. |
Season 1 and 2. “Ryan started the fire”, “Ryan is kind of a tease”, all of the Nichael/Ryan stuff, etc…
He just looked lost and yet was serious about trying to learn how to be a good businessman.
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| Originally Posted by SeanD I agree with pretty much everything else here, but I have to say I’ve never really found Ryan to be a sympathetic character beyond the first season. He started off in that position when he began work as the oft-abused temp, but once he took Jim’s job I think he already turned into a bit of an ass. I would agree that this development is clearly positioning him to be far more troublesome but was already inconveniencing Jim upon his return to Scranton. I suppose it can be argued that we are to feel sympathetic for his desire to not lose the position he has gained in Jim’s absence, but this new development doesn’t strike me as surprising for the character nor tragic; it’s expected. |
Yeah, I’d say you and Farmer Vincent are right. It’s not that Ryan’s been sympathetic all along, but that he started out sort of sympathetic and slowly became more of a jerk. He’s been one of the more grounded, realistic characters throughout, though, even as he started making movements up the ladder and becoming a dick. He’s bought fully into the upward mobility thing that we don’t really want to see Jim buy into. It would have been easy to position Dwight or Michael as the ambitious asshole type, but instead we get to see what happens to a guy who started out sort of self-aware and likeable.
So… I am a big fan of BBC Office, and have been avoiding the US version ever since being underwhelmed by the pilot a few years ago, despite the reassurance of many friends that it’s a good show. Finally, last week, we borrowed the Season 2 box set and gave it another try. My husband and I were pleasantly surprised–pleasantly enough that we blew through Season 2 and are hooked.
The US version is (IMHO) still not quite as good as the BBC version, but it seems to have found its own voice, and has many strengths the BBC version doesn’t have–particularly the luxury of time to further develop the supporting cast (Angela, Kevin, Jan, Oscar, CREED, etc).
However, I think the Dwight character is a major weakness of the show. Dwight, to put it bluntly, is no Gareth (although he does have his moments). In a show supposedly grounded in reality, Dwight always plays like a cartoony, over-the-top charicature, and doesn’t often feel like a real person. I’m not sure if this is the actor’s fault or the material, or both, but he just doesn’t do it for me.
With Season 4 being so close, my husband and I may not have time to get through all of Season 3 beforehand. Just a few quick questions:
I had heard a few rumors that Season 3 is inferior to Season 2. Thoughts? Rebuttals?
Any sign of the downsizing/combining of branches plot that was present in the BBC version?
Has Jim/Pam become the new Ross/Rachel, or does it seem to be going that way? I liked the way the romance was portrayed in Season 2, but I worry that on a longer-running show, the story will get gimmicky and watered-down very quickly, and that worries me.
Sorry if this post is so long. I’ve just got The Office on the brain, and am excited to share my love of it here!
I liked Season 3 just as much as Season 2.
Combining branches does happen, but in a much different way than the BBC version.
Jim has a girlfriend for most of Season 3, so the Pam/Jim romance is on the backburner for most of the season. I was also worried about Ross/Rachel nonsense, but I like how they handled it. I’m being purposely cryptic because I assume you don’t want things completely spoiled.
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| Originally Posted by Mattimus Sad (but true) story: We are grocery shopping last weekend and I peruse over the list my wife compiled when I notice she has Pam cooking spray listed. Thinking I am ever-so-clever, I whip out a pen and write Beesley next to Pam. SHE DIDN’T EVEN NOTICE WHAT I HAD DONE. Needless to say, it was a very grumpy night at the House of Mattimus that evening. |
Did you get the divorce papers yet?
My advice is to try and get through as many episodes as possible of season three before the new season starts. I personally like seasons two and three equally.
That’s the plan, Vincent. We are borrowing Season 3 from friends tomorrow. Unfortunately, the husband is going out of town on business the week of the premiere, so we only have a week to catch up on all 24 episodes. I sense many nights of Office binging ahead.
Thanks for the responses (and for not being too spoiler-y, although I don’t mind being spoiled on comedies).
Also: I think my husband may leave me for Pam (that is, if she and Jim don’t work out ).
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| Originally Posted by Ady Meet Roy Also: I think my husband may leave me for Pam (that is, if she and Jim don’t work out ). |
You have nothing to worry about. Men who like Pam are usually fine, honorable, upstanding people. Unlike Karen fans. Those you should be suspicious of.
Seriously. Those Karen fans steal money from their employers and kick puppies. Plus, their socks never match. Sick bastards.