Tell Me Why Buffy Doesn't Suck

TELEVISION Specific Shows
41

I think the main problem with Buffy is that its fans make claims for its importance that far outweigh the actual worth of the show.

I mean, I liked it. Mainly for the structure and pacing of the season arcs than for anything else, but it was a genre show with spark and personality, and it was very well constructed - especially when compared to the meandering awfulness of the X-Files decline. But Whedon does have a problem with dialogue - he’s very good at writing the faux-witty one-liners, but he sometimes struggles to give his characters distinct voices. The thing that brought this home to me was his work on Astonishing X-Men, where you could take much of the dialogue out of context and not be able to tell if it was from Buffy or X-Men, or even who might have said it.

When people say patently absurd things like “seriously, this is one of the best shows that came on the air ever” then you’re writing a cheque that the show can’t cash.

It’s a good show. An occasionally inspired show. But it’s far from one of the best shows ever, and it’s that sort of hyperbole that helps foster a binary love/hate reaction in new viewers.

42

I was never a fan of Buffy to begin with. The dialogue was really pathetic and it just annoyed me. Especially when they started calling them “The Scoobies”. That hurt just to write. And why would you make a drama tv show based on a comedy movie? Unless the show was supposed to be comedy too but I just didn’t get it.

43

Thanks for the feedback.
It seems I need to invest into an entire season before I can get into this show.

44

Quote:
Originally Posted by L7 Productions See… I don’t have a problem with Gilmore Girls. Lorelai Gilmore’s background sets her up to be that way. Rory is simply following her lead. They are the only two that really push the wittiness. Right there with you on the lack of Buffy love though.

Good to see someone beat me to the Gilmore defense. Now back to the original topic…

45

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobClark Thanks for the feedback. It seems I need to invest into an entire season before I can get into this show.

IMO you shouldn’t have to suffer through an entire season before it MIGHT pay off.

46

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-Man I personally like the witty dialogue that everyone speaks. To me, that’s more fun than listening to the way people talk in real life. But it’s the kind of thing that your either going to like or not like.

Very important point. The dialogue is deliberately heightened and not just in terms of witty one-liners - characters are more forthcoming with personal information than they might be in reality, they discuss outrageously unbelievable situations calmly and freak out about comparatively minor stuff, etc.

Not that I’m comparing Whedon and his writing staff to David Mamet or Don Delillo as far as talent goes (I’m definitely not, in fact), but I think the dialogue operates under sort of the same principle. It isn’t realistic in terms of reflecting how people actually talk - it’s stylized for specific reasons. This type of dialogue often doesn’t sit well with people, but I don’t think it’s a weakness in Whedon’s writing as much as a preferred style of his, which works better for some projects than others.

47

I think the problem, and the reason there are “haters” is because of the die-hard fans. I enjoyed the show.. I enjoyed Angel.. hell I love The Pretender, but I am not getting a tattoo of SMG on my ass (besides it would cover up the “Spikes Lair” one I already have). When people go all gaga over something it instantly brings haters out. Like it or don’t… it’s all that counts.

BTW, I really do love The Pretender and if you don’t like it, then you are stupid, boring, classless, and probably ugly!

48

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB This type of dialogue often doesn’t sit well with people, but I don’t think it’s a weakness in Whedon’s writing as much as a preferred style of his, which works better for some projects than others.

I don’t think the one-liners are the weakness, I think it’s Whedon’s apparent inability to tailor his witticisms to a character. Too many of his characters share the same snarky sense of humour, and as a result much of the comedy could be delivered by whichever character is on hand. It’s kind of like the early Justice League comics, where you’d have Batman, Superman and all these other characters around a table and if you took away the pictures you wouldn’t be able to tell who was saying what.

49

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Whitehead I think the main problem with Buffy is that its fans make claims for its importance that far outweigh the actual worth of the show. I mean, I liked it. Mainly for the structure and pacing of the season arcs than for anything else, but it was a genre show with spark and personality, and it was very well constructed - especially when compared to the meandering awfulness of the X-Files decline. But Whedon does have a problem with dialogue - he’s very good at writing the faux-witty one-liners, but he sometimes struggles to give his characters distinct voices. The thing that brought this home to me was his work on Astonishing X-Men, where you could take much of the dialogue out of context and not be able to tell if it was from Buffy or X-Men, or even who might have said it. When people say patently absurd things like “seriously, this is one of the best shows that came on the air ever” then you’re writing a cheque that the show can’t cash. It’s a good show. An occasionally inspired show. But it’s far from one of the best shows ever, and it’s that sort of hyperbole that helps foster a binary love/hate reaction in new viewers.

I disagree. Like I said, to each their own.. but this show was the first show I saw a continual seasonal arc of coherancy. Where little peices from each episode actually connected and lead to further episode development and then seasonal resolution of the main antagonist. Without this show, we probably wouldn’t have shows like Alias, Lost or Desperate Housewives. This show allowed for those type of shows to come on network television and allowed that creative format. If you look at the writers, you’ll see that some of your favorite episodes of Lost were written by folks you used to work on the buffy\angel series. Also, the writers have gone on to shows like Alias, Smallville, Tru Calling, the Inside and Andromeda (the first two seasons, when it was good) now not everyone likes these shows but if you do.. check out Buffy from start to finish if you don’t like it (like Chris) then more power to you, but at least you’ve had an open mind and tried it.

Buffy has allowed for such creative television as episodes where: No one could talk, there was still sound, but actors were not able to speak and you still got the episode. An episode with no music, it was off, it was meant to make you feel off and it accomplished that goal. An episode where it was a musical, with new original written songs for that episode, an episode told from the point of view of a side kick (think Justice Leagues Unlimited’s "Greatest story never told"Wink and these aren’t even my favorite episodes. It was just good television. These actors\actresses have shown a lot of range in their performances of their characters and you will never. I promise this, never ever see such character development as Wesley Wyndham Pryce played by Alexis Denisof on television again. It took 5 seasons and it was entirely amazing yet true to the character development. Now. I am not a rabid fan, who says you must watch or die, or anything like that, if it isn’t your cup of tea then so be it, but if you are going to judge the show sucks… you got to at least give something a genuine chance before arbitrarily judgeing it.(I don’t think you Dan judged it this was more of a reference to everyone)

Now when I say its one of the best shows of the air ever, i meant it. I’ve watched a lot of TV. MASH is my number 1 all time favorite TV show but somewhere in the top 10 Buffy lies and Angel is just 1 notch above her. Firefly isn’t even on the list, because it didn’t get a full season (However it was starting to shape up to be a great show).

edit
on a side note. I am not one of those fans that wants to see a spike movie or a theatrical release or anything else. To me, the show(s) were complete. Sure would have been great to see it continue but the lightening has been let out of the bottle. You have to understand that it will just do injustice to anything they’ve accomplished on television. I’d much rather see the writers move on to shows like Lost and create great television with a whole new premise then try to revitalize a show that has changed the landscape of television. Thats like saying, hey lets film a TV movie of the week of MASH, they go back and have a reunion at the old camp site… or Hey, lets have a Cunningham family reunion! just wouldn’t work…

50

Dan nails it. But I’d like to thank Joss Whedon regardless for paving the way for creative television, regardless. I mean, no one ever did any clever episodes of TV before Buffy. Especially not with dull uncreative stuff like Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, TNG, etc. He reinvented the wheel.

51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fett Dan nails it. But I’d like to thank Joss Whedon regardless for paving the way for creative television, regardless. I mean, no one ever did any clever episodes of TV before Buffy. Especially not with dull uncreative stuff like Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, TNG, etc. He reinvented the wheel.

I’ve seen all of those shows there was no seasonal arc, they were more or less consensed episodes to allow anyone to join in and get viewers. While they may have a few multi-episode arcs, they were very much so formulatic TV… I fail to see how there is a comparision. But thanks for your input.

52

[QUOTE=myPandaNY].. but this show was the first show I saw a continual seasonal arc of coherancy. Where little peices from each episode actually connected and lead to further episode development and then seasonal resolution of the main antagonist. Without this show, we probably wouldn’t have shows like Alias, Lost or Desperate Housewives. This show allowed for those type of shows to come on network television and allowed that creative format. QUOTE]
I’m sure Buffy is an influence, but Twin Peaks and X-Files laid the groundwork for that kind of drama.

53

Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY I’ve seen all of those shows there was no seasonal arc, they were more or less consensed episodes to allow anyone to join in and get viewers. While they may have a few multi-episode arcs, they were very much so formulatic TV… I fail to see how there is a comparision. But thanks for your input.

I didn’t mean the arcs.

54

Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY I disagree. Like I said, to each their own.. but this show was the first show I saw a continual seasonal arc of coherancy. Where little peices from each episode actually connected and lead to further episode development and then seasonal resolution of the main antagonist.

Which is precisely why I said “it was very well constructed - especially when compared to the meandering awfulness of the X-Files decline”.

Whedon did a great job of moving forward a larger story while still delivering stand-alone episodes at the same time.

But if you think that ideas like a silent episode, or a musical episode, were impossible before the coming of the Mighty Joss, then you clearly don’t watch enough TV. Shows like The Twilight Zone were redefining what could be done on TV decades before - their lack of season-long story arcs has nothing to do with it.

You’re demonstrating exactly the sort of blinker-mentality that puts people off - “Buffy changed television forever!”

No it didn’t. It revived a moribund strand of programming by successfully recombining certain existing ingredients in a relatively fresh way, and with no small amount of charm and sass.

But it’s not one of the greats.

55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Whitehead Which is precisely why I said “it was very well constructed - especially when compared to the meandering awfulness of the X-Files decline”. Whedon did a great job of moving forward a larger story while still delivering stand-alone episodes at the same time. But if you think that ideas like a silent episode, or a musical episode, were impossible before the coming of the Mighty Joss, then you clearly don’t watch enough TV. Shows like The Twilight Zone were redefining what could be done on TV decades before - their lack of season-long story arcs has nothing to do with it. You’re demonstrating exactly the sort of blinker-mentality that puts people off - “Buffy changed television forever!” No it didn’t. It revived a moribund strand of programming by successfully recombining certain existing ingredients in a relatively fresh way, and with no small amount of charm and sass. But it’s not one of the greats.

See, I agree, no he didn’t invent those type of episodes, musical, silent etc.. they were just good television episodes, my point of his innovation to use the season long arcs and RESOLUTION. As someone else pointed out Twin Peaks and x-Files TRIED that but failed miserably and thats the reason for their decline, the best x-files episodes were the stand alone because the ones involving any type of seasonal arcs I knew would never get resolved, it was almost a joke…

I don’t think it changed television forever, it opened doors that were available but not used in mainstream TV. I don’t think that years from now there will the type of cult status that Star Trek, Star Wars or anything else has a lasting following of fans. I think it will be however a good reference, much in the same regards as All in the Family openned the door for dysfunctional family sitcoms (ala married with children, etc..)

56

One of the greats of genre television, then, perhaps? It brought a fresh, intelligent sense of humor to a very silly concept and managed to pull it off.

And I agree with Dan on Whedon’s inability (or lack of interest?) to differentiate his characters via dialogue. But this is a common trait of Mamet’s and Delillo’s work, too, so it could be seen as a stylistic thing. There’s a sort of commonality that’s being played up maybe for the sake of bringing a sort of weird unity to the piece. It’s really what the characters DO on Buffy that defines them, not so much what they say.

I admit, it may be pushing it to say Whedon’s doing this is entirely intentional. But I think it might be, considering the other writers must have been instructed to use this style, and it had to be explained to them somehow. I think it’s more likely Whedon said, “Okay, all of the characters have this heightened wit to them - that’s how things work in this universe - , so don’t worry if they sound a little similar” than “I’m really not very good at differentiating my characters, so make sure that style stays consistent in the series by using the same voice for all of them.”

57

throwing out my tv watching creds… note, this is a partial list, only what i could think of off the top of my head(and a googled tv show list), there is so much more, yes, i had a life, yes i’ve had sex with many women and yes i’ve done many things like clif diving, rock climbing, sailing, snorkling, etc… no I have not lived in my parents basement… my parents were old when they had me and they enjoyed TV mostly older shows since they’re old so thats what most of my education was (ie, barney miller, Dick van dyke, andy griffith, I love lucy, etc…)

list of TV shows i’ve seen every episode of the series (or almost in some cases, like older shows)(not including shows i’ve seen several dozen episodes or shows that didn’t last 1 season)
I Love lucy, M*A*S*H, Star Trek, Star Trek: TNG, Star Trek: DS9, Star Trek: Enterprise, StargateSG1, Andromeda, The Andy Griffith Show, Cheers, The Dick Van Dyke Show, Bewitched, The Twilight Zone (old and new remakes), All in the Family, Happy Days, The Cosby SHow, The simpsons, the brady bunch, ER, Seinfeld, The X-Files, Quantum Leap, Get Smart, Gilligans Island, Family Ties, The Addams Family, Frasier, Law & Order, Law & Order:SVU, Batman, Home Improvement, The Wonder Years, Northern Exposure, Homicide: life on the street, Friends, Married with children(back when it repeated on the new fox network 24 hours a day), barney Miller, The Fugitive, Dragnet, Bob Newhart Show, I dream of jeannie, the golden girls, empty nest, The man from UNCLE, Laverne & Shirly, Columbo, Leave it to beaver, the monkee’s, china beach, Magnum PI, Beverly Hills 90210 (first two seasons), fresh prince of bell air, rosanne, moonlighting, lost in space, miami vice, CHiPs, St. elsewhere, Cagney & Lacey (most), Soap, Baywatch, Mad about you, LA Law, Taxi, Murphy Brown, Night Court, WKRP in Cincinnati(old & new), Three’s company, babylon 5, Knight Rider, Mork & Mindy, sienfeld, buffy the vampire slayer, angel, battlestar galactica(both), Lost, Desperate housewives, 24, Alias, Wings, the shield, nip/tuck, the incredible hulk, the outer limits(new, some of old), … pretty much if its ended up on sci-fi channel i’ve seen it. oh, and murder she wrote. John Doe, fastlane…

58

Quote:
Originally Posted by carrie potter lol. i need meds because i don’t like an actress?

No because you called someone you don’t know and have never met a “whore-bitch” which to me seems pretty strong.

59

Quote:
Originally Posted by L7 Productions IMO you shouldn’t have to suffer through an entire season before it MIGHT pay off.

I don’t think that is what people are saying (at least that is not what I was saying).

My point was that so many of the later seasons rely on an understanding of the characters and plotlines to really be satisfying, so you need to start at the beginning if you want to truly give the series a chance.

I think the issue (note that I don’t say “problem” here because there is no right or wrong… just a different perspective) that some people are having is that they aren’t quite understanding the universe and the intentions of the show.

A lot of people are making comments in line with the drama side of the show… however, the show is just as much (if not more) comedy than drama. However, it is easy to try and watch the show as a drama, and I think the show does fail on most counts as a stright up drama. So, my thought was that the people who really don’t like the show aren’t getting all of the comedic aspects (different comedic taste or sensibilities perhaps?). For people like that, it might take a larger number of episodes to get the “feel” of the universe.

If you don’t get it right off the bat, but want to give it a try, then I recommend really watching a lot of episodes starting from the beginning, and keeping in mind that the show is very meta in that it is extremely aware of itself and that comes through constantly with dialogue, action, and plot… and that that is where a great deal of the comedic elements come from. Meanwhile, it manages to intermingle dramatic elements, that by themselves might not be enough to hold a show together, but work in context.

Once again, not trying to sell anyone on the show that isn’t interested, just trying to speak to those who are truly curious but have had less than stellar experiences in their limited taste of the Buffy universe (because I came from the same place once upon a time).

60

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Mason I was never a fan of Buffy to begin with. The dialogue was really pathetic and it just annoyed me. Especially when they started calling them “The Scoobies”. That hurt just to write. And why would you make a drama tv show based on a comedy movie? Unless the show was supposed to be comedy too but I just didn’t get it.

Unless I’m remembering incorrectly, wasn’t it Spike that called them “the Scoobies?” If you don’t know… Spike was a villain in the series, and thus him calling them Scoobies was meant in a derogitory fashion. It wasn’t like Buffy and her friends adopted that as ac ute nickname in honor of Scooby Doo (sp?).

Also, yes, the show was a comedy as well (with dramatic elements).