While Juliet KOing Jack could be explained by his being exhausted, hungry, dehydrated, and drugged, I’ve long been awaiting the reveal that the Others have somehow suped themselves up physically. I always thought it was suggested with Ethan in S1, and Benry overpowered Ana-Lucia fairly easily in S2 considering he was bound, beaten, and shot prior to the encounter.
The Others are on steroids, obviously. And while Juliet could be as powerful as other Others, OO’s if you will, there was quite an inconsistency there when Jack can grab and control her when she brings the food, but she can somehow put him right to sleep with a short right hand. That violates rule no 1 of women in action roles, they can’t have Mike Tyson’s knockout power, I mean maybe if they’re fighting Woody Allen while they’re Queen Latifah, but Matthew Fox would never have been knocked out in real life by a standard broad like Juliet.
Great Opening to the episode though, but then fizzled like alobek said.
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| Originally Posted by swedish miyagi …there was quite an inconsistency there when Jack can grab and control her when she brings the food… |
Unless that was intentional (part of the experiment).
I really liked the premiere. It felt super short but it was just the kind of goodness I expect from LOST.
Juliet also hit Jack unexpectedly. If I turned around and someone sucker-punched me in the face I’d probably go down too.
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| Originally Posted by Jason P. Thompson Juliet also hit Jack unexpectedly. If I turned around and someone sucker-punched me in the face I’d probably go down too. |
No, Jason. It definitely had nothing to do with that or the fact that Jack hadn’t eaten a meal in who-knows-how-long or the fact that this is a TV show that’s bound to have a few contrivances for the sake of driving the plot.
She’s a super-powered, steroid-driven, psychic killing machine. That sounds way more in line with the tone of this series.
I don’t think Julliet is super-powered, nor do I think the rest of them are, but Ethan, Goodwyn and Ben/Henry have to have some sort of training–Ethan manages to drag to grown people, one of them pregnent, through the jungle, then turn around and beat the crap out of Jack. Goodwyn was walking around snapping necks before Ana Lucia lucked out during their fight. Henry, despite being bound, starving and dehydrated, nearly choked the life out of Ana. As evidenced by last week’s premire, they’re also some damn fast sprinters.
It might not be steroids, but the Others aren’t enitrely normal, either. Maybe the Army (or was it Navy?) knife Ana took off Goodwyn was a heads up on this.
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| Originally Posted by g-dude I don’t think Julliet is super-powered, nor do I think the rest of them are, but Ethan, Goodwyn and Ben/Henry have to have some sort of training–Ethan manages to drag to grown people, one of them pregnent, through the jungle, then turn around and beat the crap out of Jack. Goodwyn was walking around snapping necks before Ana Lucia lucked out during their fight. Henry, despite being bound, starving and dehydrated, nearly choked the life out of Ana. As evidenced by last week’s premire, they’re also some damn fast sprinters. It might not be steroids, but the Others aren’t enitrely normal, either. Maybe the Army (or was it Navy?) knife Ana took off Goodwyn was a heads up on this. |
“Normal” is relative, I suppose, but it’s probably nothing more than the combination of some self-defense/military training (as you said) and good nutrition, living in general comfort, and apparently superb organization. Also, Ethan and Goodwyn had the element of surprise, and they were taking on the castaways at a point when they were still a bit disoriented and underfed. The Others are also obviously exceptionally dedicated to an as-yet-unclear cause to the point that they come off like a cult - confidence in one’s own infallibility can result in some pretty extreme acts of determination, which is what I suspect we’ve seen, especially in Ben’s case. I don’t see it as something that requires any more explanation than “Oh, yeah - the Dharma corporation insisted on military hand-to-hand training and a regular exercise regime for all participants.”
I think some fans just get a little carried away with the sf/action aspects of the show when there’s not all that much to suggest that the writers will ever definitively resolve anything in that fashion. Despite a few things that certainly lean toward the fantastic (the invisible monster, various visions, Walt’s apparent powers, the electromagnetic properties of the island), the writers, far more often than not, have thus far resolved some of the issues on the show with ambiguity, coincidence, and just more grounded reveals.
Basically, we might see an episode in which the Others capture Sun and Jin and we find out that they were able to conceive due to some inexplicable radioactivity on the island (or that she just got knocked up by that other guy); however, we will not see Jin wielding a samurai sword psychically fashioned by Walt’s imagination to battle Ben’s pet invisible monster to engineer an escape.
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| Originally Posted by DaveB however, we will not see Jin wielding a samurai sword psychically fashioned by Walt’s imagination to battle Ben’s pet invisible monster to engineer an escape. |
Although that would be the tits!
I don’t know, watch the Ethan episode in S1 again and tell me he isn’t presented as more than just a decent athlete. The guy was like Michael Myers until they set the trap for him.
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| Originally Posted by Schwartz I don’t know, watch the Ethan episode in S1 again and tell me he isn’t presented as more than just a decent athlete. The guy was like Michael Myers until they set the trap for him. |
It’s TV, so I don’t expect exaggerated physical activity to be any indication of super powers. Alias and other shows featured outlandish examples of fighting ability, too, but it wasn’t indicative of anything other than excellent training.
I suppose it’s impossible to rule anything out on this show, but past experience shows the writers to tend more toward coincidence, ambiguity, and realism than hard sf for their reveals. The minute that this show starts attributing things definitively to sf concepts like super-soldiers and telepathy (rather than simply hinting at the latter) is the point at which it will cease to be interesting. At that point, everything becomes possible, and the audience guessing games (possibly the show’s strongest appeal) will become moot.
isnt it pretty common place in hollywood in general that a person can knock out a dude with one swift punch?
maybe it was just a hollywood thing and not so much juliette being superpowered.
ethan on the other hand, they went out of their way to make it clear that this guy was not normal.
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| Originally Posted by DaveB It’s TV, so I don’t expect exaggerated physical activity to be any indication of super powers. Alias and other shows featured outlandish examples of fighting ability, too, but it wasn’t indicative of anything other than excellent training. I suppose it’s impossible to rule anything out on this show, but past experience shows the writers to tend more toward coincidence, ambiguity, and realism than hard sf for their reveals. The minute that this show starts attributing things definitively to sf concepts like super-soldiers and telepathy (rather than simply hinting at the latter) is the point at which it will cease to be interesting. At that point, everything becomes possible, and the audience guessing games (possibly the show’s strongest appeal) will become moot. |
I kinda see what you’re saying, but Ethan’s physicality was presented differently from other characters on the same show. As far as Alias goes, you seem to defeat your own point by saying there is a reason for the exceptional fighting ability other than general TV exaggeration.
At this point, I would say that they have hinted at super-strength and telepathy, and sooner or later they’re going to have to be definitive about these things one way or the other. Whether it’s gamma rays or steroids or just a strict training regimen doesn’t really matter, but the Others are shown to be physically different from the castaways.
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| Originally Posted by Schwartz I kinda see what you’re saying, but Ethan’s physicality was presented differently from other characters on the same show. As far as Alias goes, you seem to defeat your own point by saying there is a reason for the exceptional fighting ability other than general TV exaggeration. |
You missed my point a little. The reason given for that exceptional fighting ability was military training, despite the fact that it went far beyond what one could reasonably expect of even a well-trained human being. The rationale was not “super strength,” “abnormality,” or “steroids.” And, assuming Ethan’s had combat training (a safe bet), of course he’s portrayed differently from other characters on the same show. Sayid aside, they haven’t had military training. Naturally, this guy is going to run circles around a doctor, a junkie, a pregnant woman, etc.
When evaluating the truly weird stuff on Lost, you have to keep in mind that everything’s elevated on this show, including even the less fantastical - an until-recently-wheelchair-bound middle-aged desk jockey not only instantly recovers, but is a badass hunter/warrior/spiritual leader, a hardcore heroin addict manages to kick on an island with barely anyone suspecting anything is wrong with him, and it’s days before a Korean woman lets on that she speaks near-perfect English in an extreme crisis situation in which communication could be key. These things all stretch believability, but they don’t bear explanation, because they’re simply acceptable TV contrivances - they’re part of the drama.
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| At this point, I would say that they have hinted at super-strength and telepathy, and sooner or later they’re going to have to be definitive about these things one way or the other. Whether it’s gamma rays or steroids or just a strict training regimen doesn’t really matter, but the Others are shown to be physically different from the castaways. |
As I said above, they’re well-rested, well-fed, well organized, and have had some physical training. That’s really all the explanation you need to establish them as being in physically better condition, and we already pretty much know all of that stuff. The mystery isn’t in how Juliet knocked Jack out, but in why she knocked Jack out.
My point is that unless Juliet/the others are on juice or something, her easily knocking out Jack is too much of a contrivance, I don’t give a fuck if he’s tired and hungry, she’s not Smokin’ Joe Frazier.
I’m more than willing to accept Jack getting knocked out because he was off-guard, starving, exhausted, dehydrated and drugged, and it’s TV. My thing with the Others is based on Ethan. There is a part in the S1 episode “Homecoming”, where they make a point of showing Ethan grab Charlie by the neck and hold him a foot off the ground with one hand without breaking even breathing heavy. Then there’s the not-so-physically intimidating Benry overpowering AL, a very tough broad, while tied up, beaten and shot (with a crossbow).
I think they have deliberately suggested that the Other’s are abnormally strong and tough, and are going to explain it at some point. I don’t think the answer will be a particularly outlandish bit of SF, but you never know. Like I said, it could be just pilates and great nutrition, but it’s intentional.
…and I think they mix in a little Tae Bo. I would actually like it if they had an interesting reason why the others are a little juiced up. Maybe at some point Sawyer and Henry Gale get in a hand to hand throwdown and Gale rag dolls him around, then MC Gainey slaps on the sleeper to both Jack and Sayid at once.
EDIT: because I am a sick fuck who needs to edit things.
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| Originally Posted by Schwartz I’m more than willing to accept Jack getting knocked out because he was off-guard, starving, exhausted, dehydrated and drugged, and it’s TV. My thing with the Others is based on Ethan. There is a part in the S1 episode “Homecoming”, where they make a point of showing Ethan grab Charlie by the neck and hold him a foot off the ground with one hand without breaking even breathing heavy. Then there’s the not-so-physically intimidating Benry overpowering AL, a very tough broad, while tied up, beaten and shot (with a crossbow). I think they have deliberately suggested that the Other’s are abnormally strong and tough, and are going to explain it at some point. I don’t think the answer will be a particularly outlandish bit of SF, but you never know. Like I said, it could be just pilates and great nutrition, but it’s intentional. |
I agree, and lets not forget all the conjecture from the tailies about almost supernaturally fast and silent the others are in the jungle.
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| Originally Posted by Schwartz I don’t know, watch the Ethan episode in S1 again and tell me he isn’t presented as more than just a decent athlete. The guy was like Michael Myers until they set the trap for him. |
I think Henry choose Ethan for the mission because Ethan is one of their most powerful members physically. The guy is tall, and broad sholdered, he looks powerful enough for it to be believable. The question is will there be a rematch with Jack?
I may be a little fuzzy in my memory here but didn’t Ethan get wasted? I seem to remember Charlie putting 3 or 4 bullets into his chest…