I couldn’t decide whether to put this in politics or religion (they’re hard to separate these days). Anyway, Here’s my question for discussion:
Who does gay marriage hurt?
I don’t think it hurts anyone. I think it makes the gays who are marrying happy, provides legal benefits to the partners either at their own cost or the cost of an employer (who would willingly pay the cost for different-sex marriage). It doesn’t affect my marriage one bit. They only people who seem bothered by it are basing their reaction on religion. Since we supposedly have separation of church and state, that shouldn’t be a factor in lawmaking.
So fill me in. Why are people so bothered by this? How does making the gays “live in sin” make the country a better place?
Marriage doesn’t belong to religion anymore. It belongs to American culture.If the marriage is outside of any church, the church’s opinion is irrelevant.
So, with that out of the way, it should be between any 2 people. Period. Like Whitehead said in the other thread, calling it something other than marriage, like a civil union, wouldn’t be right.
“Seperate But Equal” is not equal. Black people had to use different bathrooms, sit in the back of the bus…at least they were on the bus, what’s the difference!!!
How many of the 11 amendments (or referendums or whatever) that just passed also banned civil unions? I was under the impression that several did, but I have no numbers to back that up. If they’re also banning unions then it’s simply religion-based bigotry and segraation based on morality.
You can’t legislate morality, people.
Oh, and I’m sorry if this topic has been done to death. It’s just been on my mind again since the election. I’ve been trying to avoid the politics fourm to keep my blood pressure down lately.
Gay marriage does not hurt anyone. Hell, even a “legal union” of any kind would not pose any problem.
ANY two people committed to a long term, fulfilling relationship and willing to make a “legal” commitment to that should be allowed to do so.
The “union” is actually irrelevant. The key is benefits. Insurance, death beni’s, legal beni’s, etc…
Two people, regardless of who they are, in a committed relationship should have EVERY and ALL legal rights as anyone else.
I don’t give a crap what they do behind closed doors, just as I don’t give a crap what “heteros” do behind closed doors. Know why? It’s none of my business.
If they love each other, if they are willing to make a commitment to each other, have at it. They should be treated legally and socially as any other couple in the land.
I don’t know, I agree that Civil Unions/Marriage might be semantics, but I think they should have gone for the “Civil Union” thing FIRST… and then progressed methodically from there with an effort to legalize Gay Marriage. Instead, they went for the whole enchilada right off the bat and it ended up backfiring nationwide with these Constitutional amendments.
Still, it’s troubling that these measures passed so authoritatively,
Originally Posted by Sammy Jankis Who does gay marriage hurt?
simply put, there are people who feel the need to force their views on other human beings. they may draw inspiration from the bible, or the koran, or the popular opinions at the local bar, whatever, but the result is the same: if they feel something is wrong, or icky, or questionable, they won’t accept the fact that someone else may think differently.
so if you’re a man and the very idea of sleeping with another man gives you the creeps, you may simply accept that it’s not your cup of tea and move on, or you may instead try to convince everyone else that nobody should be allowed to do that. and as this mission of yours encounters the first resistance, you’ll start pulling out soundbites from your preferred religious literature, or dubious scientific facts, or use the ever popular “we have to protect our children”.
so to answer your question, who does gay marriage hurt, i say nobody, but neither did giving equal rights to the black polulation, or the right to vote to women, but that didn’t stop millions of people from trying to convince you for many years that it was wrong. once gay will eventually gain the right to marry, i’m sure the pious people will find something else to be pissed about.
Originally Posted by Sammy Jankis So why did all of the states who had it on the ballot make same sex marriage illegal? I don’t know a single person who is opposed to it.
Me, either. Even the more conservative people I know were against a Constitutional ban.
I don’t get it. I guess it just had to be the sleeping giant population of fundie evangelicals who put down their Bibles, turned off their black & white televisions, fired up their Oldsmobiles and then drove to the polls. No other way to explain it.
I can’t really explain it rationally, but I will add, for what its worth, that I believe churchgoers were inundated with a flood of propoganda during the run up to the election.
My girlfriend’s mom, who is a devout catholic, called her on tuesday night spewing hateful, condescending rhetoric about morality and such, saying she needed to think about gay marriage, abortion, Kerry’s plan to socialize medicine, etc… and this was after a few months ago, when her mom had talked to her about how she was voting for Kerry because of Iraq, no WMDs, etc… The 180 degree about face really shook my girl up because it was like "brainwashing’ (her words.) It was kinda sad… and aggravating.
Well, I really think the problem was in the packaging.
The physical words “Gay Marriage” and “Civil Union” have a totally different connotation in society. I hate to say it, but some of the gays shot themselves in the foot in the overzealous approach they took to this.
You want something like this to pass, you don’t stand around screaming at everyone that will listen “I’M GAY, YOU CAN’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO, AND I WANT TO GET MARRIED!!!”
That turns people off. In a hurry.
You approach it logically. “I would like to be legally recognized as a partner in a civil union. Just like your parents were when you were born” AND THEN SHUT UP!
That’s the classic sales technique. You say “the zinger” then you shut up. The next person to talk looses.
I really don’t think many people would have a fundamental problem with an approach like this: “I don’t care what you do, as long it hurts no one. You should not care what I do, as long it hurts no one.”
I really don’t see a bad approach with that. To totally candid the whole “I’M HERE, I’M QUEER, AND I DEMAND TO BE ACCEPTED” approach really does not fly.
You shouldn’t have to sell equality is the problem with that. The fact some people don’t like that they call themselves queer doesn’t mean shit.
I suppose you’d sit idly by when your rights were trampled on and slowly explain to those who oppose you that dog-gonnit, you’re just looking for the same rights as everyone else. Then from the other side, why the hell would they change? If they’re not being challenged, it’s that much easier to just say no.
I think there’s something seriously wrong with the notion that this should not be a simple matter of civil rights (where applicable) for everyone, and religious freedoms (where applicable) for everyone, since marriage is one of those odd institutions that occupies both spaces.