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| Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post What gets me too is how a lot of the people who are like, “We should have security like Israel” would be the first ones to lose their shit when they saw guards with automatic weapons in the terminals. |
Wait, what – when did they get removed?
I remember guards with SMGs in DFW back in 2000. I’m certainly travelling in the US much less now, though …
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| Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post There have been doctors who have been exposed in the past to violate the law and generally be incompetent, but I bet you still go to the gynecologist. |
An OBGYN has years of study and training that your average TSA employee lacks, and the doctor patient relationship is one based on trust and professionalism. A TSA screener is someone who you’ve never met before and will never see again, and whose qualifications and personal record you are not entitled to know. There have been countless TSA horror stories in the decade since 9/11, and I don’t think my concerns are unjustified or out of line
EDIT: And more over, I agree with Tzu that it’s a 4th Amendment issue when you get right down to it
All of this sounds super sexy to me. I wonder what the TSA employees would do if someone started emitting little moans or orgasmic gasps while they were being patted down (much like Ron Swanson getting his shoes polished for all of you “Parks and Recreation” fans).
I could understand the position of many of you supporting these measures if it could be objectively proven that they are definitely making everyone safer.
…but - are we talking about security or ‘security theatre’ when it comes to many of these new measures?
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| Lots of people are telling airport-security stories these days. Thus far I have refrained from doing so, even though I travel a lot, because I think the TSA security screeners generally do a good job. But last week I saw something so dumb that I just have to share it. I’m in the security-checkpoint line at Boston’s Logan airport. In front of me is an All-American family of five, Mom, Dad, and three young children, obviously headed somewhere hot and sunny. They have the usual assortment of backpacks and carry-on bags. When they get through the metal detector, they’re told that Mom and Dad had been pre-designated for the more intensive search, where they wand-scan you and go through your bags. This search is a classic example of what Bruce Schneier calls Security Theater, since it looks impressive but doesn’t do much good. The reason it doesn’t do much good is that it’s easy to tell in advance whether you’re going to be searched. At one major airport, for example, the check-in agent writes a large red “S” on your boarding pass if you’re designated for this search; you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know what this means. So only clueless bad guys will be searched, and groups of bad guys will be able to transfer any contraband into the bags of group members who won’t be searched, with plenty of time after the security checkpoint to redistribute it as desired. But back to my story. Mom and Dad have been designated for search, and the kids have not. So the security screener points to the family’s pile of bags and asks which of the bags belong to Mom and Dad, because those are the ones that he is going to search. That’s right: he asks the suspected bad guys (and they must be suspected, otherwise why search them) which of their bags they would like to have searched. Mom is stunned, wondering if the screener can possibly be asking what she thinks he’s asking. I can see her scheming, wondering whether to answer honestly and have some stranger paw through her purse, or to point instead to little Johnny’s bag of toys. Eventually she answers, probably honestly, and the screener makes a great show of diligence in his search. Security theater, indeed. |
Do on the ground realities such as the anecdote related here give any of these measures chewer supporters pause at all?
There’s a lot of theater in it. Lots of pulling over guys who are like 70 year old WASPS, just so they can call the shit “random.”
Is there any way to get a show of hands here to see how many of you guys actually, y’know, fly? I’m on roughly 4-6 flights per month. And I obviously hate the idea of the TSA snickering over my flabby naked form and grower-not-a-shower peepee. But you know what I would hate worse? Getting blown the fuck up on an airplane.
If (IF…if) I could be assured these measures would in fact substantially increase the safety of every flight, I’d have no issue here.
We need FrankCobretti up in this thread, stat.
I probably only fly about 4-5 times a year. I don’t see how that would magically invalidate my opinion, though.
Your opinion is perfectly valid. I suspect there are people wringing hands who never fly anyway. I think you can agree with me that flying gives you a different insight into something that could potentially save lives, or even just reduce the stress levels of thousands of people PER HOUR, and has merit worth examining beyond whipping out the Constitution and crying to the heavens.
But I also threw a couple "if"s in my post as to whether this will be an effective safety measure.
I fly all the time. I also take the train all the time. I’m kind of failing to understand why so many people are fine with having to take off your shoes and get to second base with a TSA employee in the name of safety. It’s just a classic example of Bush era “if we give up x civil liberty, we’ll be safe from terra” thinking.
Terrorists target trains all the time, almost none of the security measures currently enforced in airports are enforced in any way in train stations, and yet people here and in the country in general just uncritically absorb the idea that these measures are justified and necessary.
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| Originally Posted by Phil View Post Your opinion is perfectly valid. I suspect there are people wringing hands who never fly anyway. I think you can agree with me that flying gives you a different insight into something that could potentially save lives, or even just reduce the stress levels of thousands of people PER HOUR, and has merit worth examining beyond whipping out the Constitution and crying to the heavens. But I also threw a couple "if"s in my post as to whether this will be an effective safety measure. |
Sorry… I didn’t mean to imply that YOU were specifically one to try to invalidate less than frequent fliers. There ARE those that are making those claims, however, and I should have clarified that in my post.
Also, I’m somebody that has always flown in a post 9/11 world… so I don’t even remember flying before advanced security procedures. Every time they ramp it up, I usually just shrug and go along with it.
In this case, I am a little concerned with the number of google news hits from concerned pilot and medical organizations with regards to these machines.
As for me? Like I said earlier, gimme that intensive pat down. Closest I’ll ever get to the mile-high club as far as I’m concerned.
I wonder if that nudie scanner technology will progress to a point where someone could have a handheld wand version. That would create a bit of an uproar.
The only thing I mind about airport checkpoints is the attitude of the beaten down TSA security guards, as they seem to hate everyone. I know its a tough job, but on many occasions I’ve seen them get verbally abusive with undeserving passengers.
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| Originally Posted by sunwukong View Post Wait, what – when did they get removed? I remember guards with SMGs in DFW back in 2000. I’m certainly travelling in the US much less now, though … |
Could it have been 2001 when you saw the guards? All fifty state Governors, at the President’s request, activated their National Guard personnel to show an armed presence at the airports after 9/11 in order to convince people that flying was safe.
That activation was “security theater” at its best. I had just transitioned from the active duty (i.e., federal) military to the Guard and I recall our orders stated on paper that the activation was to be for 178 days. Because the state employee Guardsmen would have been eligible for federal veteran’s benefits if the mission had run for a full six months. This was before the invasion of Afghanistan, when the Army’s yearlong tours of duty would guarantee those benefits for everyone who deployed overseas.
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| Originally Posted by KConan View Post The only thing I mind about airport checkpoints is the attitude of the beaten down TSA security guards, as they seem to hate everyone. I know its a tough job, but on many occasions I’ve seen them get verbally abusive with undeserving passengers. |
The TSA personnel I’ve interacted with when flying have seemed professional enough. I can only imagine that volume of shit they have to take from anxious tourists. Airports were miserable places long before the invention of the TSA.
I fly quite a lot. Been flying to somewhere different in Europe every week this past month. They don’t make us use it here, but I do fly to the US a lot since me familia lives there. TSA doesn’t bother me too much. But I think it’s bullshit, and would rather not have it. But I’m not going to fight it. And I don’t actually fear being blown up on a plane anymore than I’m afraid I’ll be killed in a car crash. I’m going to Tel Aviv week after next. I’m sure they’ll be using it there. That’s sure as hell not the place to protest. Going to Amsterdam this Sunday! Wonder what I’ll do.
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| Originally Posted by Nabster View Post Going to Amsterdam this Sunday! Wonder what I’ll do. |
Condoms filled with weed up your ass. Safe travels.
Nah, I’m going for there for work. But I know what you’ll be doing. You’ll be here. As usual. Kinda sad.
T’fuck did I do to you?
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| Originally Posted by Nabster View Post Nah, I’m going for there for work. But I know what you’ll be doing. You’ll be here. As usual. Kinda sad. |
What the hell, dude?
Exhibitionists of the world are rejoicing.
Of all the things that annoy the shit out of me about flying, a potential groping by a surly TSA agent is way down the list. I’m picking my battles on this one; there are so many more egregious invasions of privacy out there worth getting upset over than this.
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| Airports were miserable places long before the invention of the TSA. |
They weren’t perfect but were nowhere near as miserable as they are now in terms of expense, hassle, delays, and queues/lines. All of which contribute to the shitty moods of everyone involved.
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| Originally Posted by Jared Melton View Post What the hell, dude? |
I can’t tell if it was a kneejerk response to misinterpreting my genuinely friendly travel advice, or a cheap shot at my embarrassingly large post count*. But Nabster’s last 150 posts are almost exclusively about videogames, Batman 3, hating America and smoking weed. Not sure where or how I warranted the insult. Anyway, have a good trip, sorry if something I said rubbed you the wrong way somehow.
*You do realize with the advent of smart phones, me being “here as usual” is me being literally anywhere, right? I’ve posted on these boards from toilets, hotel rooms, bars, airports, airPLANES, work. I’m not locked in the basement or something. The future!