“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.”

In These Times has constructed a pretty solid case for the Bush administration knowing a) there were no WMD in Iraq; and b) there was no Iraq/al-Qaeda connection as it built its case for attacking that country.

While Bush now says he would have done it anyway, the invasion and subsequent and lengthy occupation have been bungled in nearly every way, shape or form possible. This includes:

*not ensuring full UN backing prior to invading
*not securing Iraq’s borders, allowing all forms of enemy combatants to enter the country unchecked
*not sending enough coalition forces to secure the country from looting (the power grid was destroyed during the occupation, not during the attack) despite the army’s recommendation
*wasting billions of taxpayer dollars on unchecked no-bid contracts to cronies like Halliburton and Bechtel
*creating a policy that engendered a dangerous atmosphere in prisons, opening the door to the kind of abuse Bush himself cited as justification for the “regime change”
*attempting to install a puppet regime, which further delayed the stabilization of Iraq
*firing outright rather than screening the Iraqi army for potential building blocks for a new army
*not protecting soldiers by outfitting them with 21st century protective gear and vehicles

And on and on.

I’m sure every war has had its share of deadly gaffes, but since this war was launched on false grounds to begin with, the fact that nearly a thousand GIs and countless Iraqis have died as a result of bad planning and execution is just unforgivable, to me anyway.

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*not ensuring full UN backing prior to invading

we are a sovereign nation who can and should act in our own best interest. We do not need, nor should we always seek, UN approval. The UN is an ineffective and useless institution built on rhetoric and has no teeth or spine when it comes to their own sanctions.

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not securing Iraq’s borders, allowing all forms of enemy combatants to enter the country unchecked

Ok, this was a bad call, but wholly impractical in an operational sense anyway.

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not sending enough coalition forces to secure the country from looting (the power grid was destroyed during the occupation, not during the attack) despite the army’s recommendation

Had the “rules of engagement” been different, we would not have needed a HUGE force. However, due to political constraints, yes, a larger force should have been involved. Also, martial law should have been declared day one, with strict cerfews, and then slowly lessened. This would have given us an opportunity to detect the insurgents.

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wasting billions of taxpayer dollars on unchecked no-bid contracts to cronies like Halliburton and Bechtel

If the company is qualified to do the job, they should get the job. These are two of the best in the world at what they do.

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creating a policy that engendered a dangerous atmosphere in prisons, opening the door to the kind of abuse Bush himself cited as justification for the “regime change”

Please. Having a bag over your head, being naked, or having a dog leash around you neck is nothing compared to watching your family boiled alive before you, or being crushed by stones, or put in a wood chipper, etc… As heinous as it was, our troops behavior at Abu Gharib was nothing more than a college frat hazing, comparatively speaking.

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attempting to install a puppet regime, which further delayed the stabilization of Iraq

Ok, which do you want? People scream for the country to be immediatly turned over, and when that is tried, it’s “Oh no!! Not to that guy!” It takes time, and so many were not willing to give it.

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firing outright rather than screening the Iraqi army for potential building blocks for a new army

This was the only prudent move. As an opposing fighting force, you make sure they are totally descimated, disbanded and no longer of any effective threat. Some of the previous Iraqi military has been allowed to rejoin, which is fine, but disbanding immediately was the right move.

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not protecting soldiers by outfitting them with 21st century protective gear and vehicles

the “fighting force” that was sent had all proper equipment. It was the occupying force that had problems. Still, it was a problem.

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but since this war was launched on false grounds to begin with

This phrase really is beginning to turn my stomach. This is a rallying cry for narrowminded stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Dale ‘Grifter’ Wicker we are a sovereign nation who can and should act in our own best interest. We do not need, nor should we always seek, UN approval. The UN is an ineffective and useless institution built on rhetoric and has no teeth or spine when it comes to their own sanctions.

Nevertheless, we ARE part of this world and we shouldn’t just dismiss them if they don’t agree with us. Furthermore, for a “useless institution built on rhetoric and has no teeth or spine”, they seemed good enough to ask for help when the going got rough in Iraq.

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If the company is qualified to do the job, they should get the job. These are two of the best in the world at what they do.

And yet in a free-market economy, the option for rebuilding Iraq wasn’t even offered to other companies.

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Please. Having a bag over your head, being naked, or having a dog leash around you neck is nothing compared to watching your family boiled alive before you, or being crushed by stones, or put in a wood chipper, etc… As heinous as it was, our troops behavior at Abu Gharib was nothing more than a college frat hazing, comparatively speaking.

What kind of sick-ass frat were you trying to get into? Also, I hope you understand the difference between a FRATERNITY and a PRISON. One, you want to get into and will subject yourself to such tasks for vaguely-homoerotic brotherhood. The other, mmmm…not so much. You see, in a military prison, one would hope that there would be a little bit more order and little less naked man pile. Also, do you REEEALLY want to be setting the bar at Saddam Hussein? The “we’re not as as bad as Saddam” rhetoric is pretty idiotic. Don’t you think that the United States of America should try and hold itself to a slightly higher standard? Yeah, things with Saddam were worse. Doesn’t give us a pass to treat prisoners and detainees as sub-human.

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–“but since this war was launched on false grounds to begin with” This phrase really is beginning to turn my stomach. This is a rallying cry for narrowminded stupidity.

Show me ONE picture of an WMD found in Iraq. Just one.

Grifter’s been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh. The frat I joined never had forced masturbation as part of the hazing ritual.

Your ability to brush off the torture of innocent people (I don’t have the statistic right here, but it’s well above 50% of the prisoners) is telling.

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Originally Posted by Matt Goldberg Show me ONE picture of an WMD found in Iraq. Just one.

Matt, that’s the whole point.

WMD was not the only, be all end all reason for going into Iraq. Despite the fact that the information was initially backed be several intel agencies, and only in hindsight is easy to dismiss, there were other reasons given. The WMD one just seems to be the only reason continually hammered upon, and it is growing tiresome.

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Originally Posted by Guttenberg Fan Club Grifter’s been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh. The frat I joined never had forced masturbation as part of the hazing ritual. Your ability to brush off the torture of innocent people (I don’t have the statistic right here, but it’s well above 50% of the prisoners) is telling.

Two points here:

  1. I don’t listen to Rush. He has become annoying.

  2. torture is far different from humiliation, but so many seem to use the terms interchangeably.

No it isn’t, Grifter. Humiliation is a form of torture.

And if you don’t listen to Rush, you may as well. You’re already as programmed as he is.

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Originally Posted by Dale ‘Grifter’ Wicker Matt, that’s the whole point. WMD was not the only, be all end all reason for going into Iraq. Despite the fact that the information was initially backed be several intel agencies, and only in hindsight is easy to dismiss, there were other reasons given. The WMD one just seems to be the only reason continually hammered upon, and it is growing tiresome.

No there weren’t. We went into Iraq because the President boldly stated during his state of the union address that Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat and possessed weapons of mass destruction. He went in on flimsy information with hardly any support of the world and when he couldn’t find any weapons, he changed reasons, saying it was to liberate the people of Iraq, which was bullshit. Liberating the people of Iraq was never at the top of Bush’s agenda. If it was, he would have pushed it long before 9/11. And if we’re trying to save people the world over, why aren’t we in Sudan or other war-torn nations?

It’s hammered upon because it was Bush’s BIG reason and it was a lie. War is too important and too big to simply say “oops, my bad”.

Well, the other reason is that Saddam tried to kill his Dad. Should we be focusing more on that?

things like sleep deprivation, stress positions and intimidation are not torture.

They are not in the same league as naked man piles and electro shock to your nuts.

Bush gave WMD as an excuse because it was something everyone could understand. Simple and straight to the point, Americans like that. Well obviously international politics and wartime poitics are more nuanced than that, obviously there’s more to it. Not many things in this world are ever that simple. Some presume an underhanded agenda, smart people know better.

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Originally Posted by JuddL things like sleep deprivation, stress positions and intimidation are not torture. They are not in the same league as naked man piles and electro shock to your nuts. Bush gave WMD as an excuse because it was something everyone could understand. Simple and straight to the point, Americans like that. Well obviously international politics and wartime poitics are more nuanced than that, obviously there’s more to it. Not many things in this world are ever that simple. Some presume an underhanded agenda, smart people know better.

Yes, the American people were far too dumb BEFORE the war to understand saving the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator. Only after finding no WMDs did the American people get just enough brain power to understand such an insanely difficult explanation.

Also, if sleep deprivation and stress positions are not torture, then what are they?

Oddly enough, these mean totally different things to me. (dictionary.com)

hu·mil·i·a·tion n.
The act of humiliating; degradation.
The state of being humiliated or disgraced; shame.
A humiliating condition or circumstance.

tor·ture n.
Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
Something causing severe pain or anguish.

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Nevertheless, we ARE part of this world and we shouldn’t just dismiss them if they don’t agree with us. Furthermore, for a “useless institution built on rhetoric and has no teeth or spine”, they seemed good enough to ask for help when the going got rough in Iraq.

Not to mention that they were good enough to write resolutions for Iraq to supposedly break, giving Halliburton and Bechtel the chance to be the best there is at what they do. Which apparently includes driving empty trucks across Iraq, serve American soldiers rotten food, and defraud the U.S. government.

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Originally Posted by Dale ‘Grifter’ Wicker Oddly enough, these mean totally different things to me. (dictionary.com) hu·mil·i·a·tion n. The act of humiliating; degradation. The state of being humiliated or disgraced; shame. A humiliating condition or circumstance. tor·ture n. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense. Something causing severe pain or anguish.

The dictionary?

Really?

That’s your argument? Not the definition of torture as laid out in the Geneva Convention or your own laws, but the dictionary?

Well! I’m glad that’s settled.

Grifter, if you don’t think strapping someone to a wooden board and submersing them in water until they think they are going to die is torture, that you’re a fucking idiot, and simply in denial.

And from all indications there are abuses we don’t even know about yet, such as the allegations of sodomy, etc.. Your eagerness to dismiss everything as some sort of prank is more telling than you realize.

Then again, you’d enjoy actually performing those tortures…

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Originally Posted by Matt Goldberg Yes, the American people were far too dumb BEFORE the war to understand saving the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator. Only after finding no WMDs did the American people get just enough brain power to understand such an insanely difficult explanation.

What exactly do the American people understand? Things now have been oversimplified on the other end of the spectrum, “Bush is a liar and can do no good”. These people feel like they’ve realized something, like they know the truth now. The irony boggles my mind.

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Also, if sleep deprivation and stress positions are not torture, then what are they?

Torture is an extreme and I think the word is thrown around too lightly. To me torture would cause severe physical and emotional pain, not discomfort and fright. That’s not to say there aren’t similarities, both are methods of coercion through discomfort. One is an extreme however.

I pledged a fraternity last year, I know all too well what it’s like to be kept up for hours on end, cold and wet and stuck in an uncomfortable position. It sucks, it really sucks but the worst that ever came out of it was a cold, and damn if it doesn’t fuck with your head at the time.

EDIT: I’m not saying one is necessarily right but the difference needs to be acknowledged. My biggest problem with the whole idea is that we rounded up so many innocent people that a lot of them were given this treatment when it wasn’t warranted.

Christ, when did America become this fucking jaded and evil? This is sickening…

Nobody’s asking you what you define as torture. It’s already defined.

Good thing, too.

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Originally Posted by Jacob Singer Christ, when did America become this fucking jaded and evil? This is sickening…

I like the “Americans wouldn’t understand the real reason for war so we had to make one up.” That’s the best line in this farce so far.

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Originally Posted by JuddL What exactly do the American people understand? Things now have been oversimplified on the other end of the spectrum, “Bush is a liar and can do no good”. These people feel like they’ve realized something, like they know the truth now. The irony boggles my mind.

Might you take some time to explain the complexities and finer details of what the American people have been missing? Thank God we have someone like you, who can see the forest from the trees, and can explain it all.

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Torture is an extreme and I think the word is thrown around too lightly. To me torture would cause severe physical and emotional pain, not discomfort and fright. That’s not to say there aren’t similarities, both are methods of coercion through discomfort. One is an extreme however. I pledged a fraternity last year, I know all too well what it’s like to be kept up for hours on end, cold and wet and stuck in an uncomfortable position. It sucks, it really sucks but the worst that ever came out of it was a cold, and damn if it doesn’t fuck with your head at the time. EDIT: I’m not saying one is necessarily right but the difference needs to be acknowledged. My biggest problem with the whole idea is that we rounded up so many innocent people that a lot of them were given this treatment when it wasn’t warranted.

Here’s a difference to acknowledge:

FRATERNITY - You WANT to get in. It’s YOUR CHOICE to be subjected to idiotic hazings of emotionally stunted college students.

PRISON - You DON’T want to get in. You have NO CHOICE but to be subjected to the whims of sadistic guards.