Robert Fisk discusses the implications of the WikiLeaks expose in his inimitable fashion.
If it weren’t for us, Robert Fisk would be more like Herr Fisk, amirite?
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So there is a scenario that exists where GB wins WWII without American involvement and our kick-ass military might of overpowering awesomeness?
(And before anyone yells at me: I’m kidding. Come on, I just finished Mother Night!)
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| Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post So there is a scenario that exists where GB wins WWII without American involvement and our kick-ass military might of overpowering awesomeness? |
The moment Hitler chose to take on the awesome military might of Uncle Joe (which got to Berlin quicker than the combined Allied forces) all Britain needed to do was protect her borders.
Hitler briefly thought about a seaborne invasion of Britain, but neither the Wehrmacht nor the SS field commanders thought it was feasible - especially since the Germans couldn’t gain air supremacy and there was the little matter of the Royal Navy, which at the time was the most well equipped in the world.
Oh, so it’d be Comrade Fisk if not for the good ole U.S. of A, amirite?
Much more likely. You guys kicked ass in the Pacific but 80% of the action in Europe was in the Eastern Front.
On topic now, this too will be easily digested and forgotten about. Because when our guys are torturing and murdering en masse they’re badasses who ‘get the job done’ and ‘save innocent lives’. Only when the bad guys do the same things are they worthy of condemnation.
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| Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post Oh, so it’d be Comrade Fisk if not for the good ole U.S. of A, amirite? |
No. Stalin wasn’t expansionist. Shunned it, even.
Man its really disgusting what this report has uncovered. Really disgusting. The US commits worse crimes than the Taliban or any of their supposed enemies. The US has pretty much no crediblity left in the rest of world, but regular Americans will never understand how hated their nation is becoming. But of course, the contents of the wikileaks will not be discussed on American media at all, the consistency of their self censorship is rather incredible.
I shudder to think what the nazi like private security have done in Iraq. Did you know the Iraqi government demanded BlackWater leave their country, and they simply refused? Blackwaters reward for being mass murderers? The US renewed and expanded their contracts.
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| Originally Posted by stelios View Post Much more likely. You guys kicked ass in the Pacific but 80% of the action in Europe was in the Eastern Front. On topic now, this too will be easily digested and forgotten about. Because when our guys are torturing and murdering en masse they’re badasses who ‘get the job done’ and ‘save innocent lives’. Only when the bad guys do the same things are they worthy of condemnation. |
Well, to your first point: The US provided desperately needed material to the Russians, and also provided a Second and Third Front (Italy, then France) that forced Hitler to divide his military. Would Russia have won without that support? Maybe, maybe not.
On topic: I"m really appalled that Americans now see these kinds of atrocities as acceptable. We have people in Congress decrying those who speak out against these actions as “Terrorists Sympathizers”
I wonder, can America truly be shamed over this when a large proportion of its populace either won’t know, won’t want to know or won’t care about the details?
Let’s not forget that the US campaigns in North Africa and Italy tied up plenty of Axis resources that otherwise could have gone to the Eastern Front.
Plus, we had Tom Hanks, Lee Marvin, and Brad Pitt fighting for us, while the Brits had Michael Fassbender. Advantage: Uncle Sam.
WikiLeaks vows more revelations
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| WIKILEAKS plans to release another batch of 15,000 classified documents relating to the war in Afghanistan following its weekend disclosure of a ream of US army reports detailing civilian deaths and detainee abuse during the Iraq war. The new documents would be released in the near future, according to WikiLeaks’ Australian founder, Julian Assange, who said he remained committed to the public disclosure of the ‘‘intimate details of war’’ despite fierce criticism from world governments. ‘‘We make a promise to our sources, who go through incredible risks sometimes to get us material, that we’ll do justice to their efforts and get them the maximum political impact possible,’’ a pale and weary-looking Mr Assange told journalists in London. His pledge came as US and Iraqi officials sought to downplay the significance of the disclosure of almost 400,000 battlefield reports by US soldiers known as ‘‘Sigacts’’ - military jargon for reports of significant activity - which have shed new light on the Iraq war’s civilian toll. The revelations prompted a call by the UN’s special rapporteur on torture, Austrian human rights lawyer Manfred Nowak, for the US to investigate whether its troops were implicated in any of the incidents detailed. He said the US had a moral duty to consider the matters even if the alleged violations pre-dated the current government. ‘‘President Obama also has an obligation … to probe whenever there are credible allegations torture has happened - and these allegations are more than credible - and then it is up to the courts.’’ |
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| The Pentagon, while deploring the release of the documents, has not challenged their authenticity. |
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| Mr Obama, on a campaign sweep of western states ahead of next week’s mid-term congressional elections, has not addressed the issue in any depth, while in Washington, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton issued a pro forma response, condemning the disclosure of any classified information that threatened national security, or put at risk the lives of coalition forces or civilians. The disclosure was ‘‘shameful’’ and something that could ‘‘undermine our nation’s security’’, according to Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell. The Pentagon had also issued the results of a recent Associated Press survey showing that Americans had more confidence in the US military than they had in banks, the media, public schools and organised religion. |
I’ve had CNN on my television for quite a bit this week, and these WikiLeaks have only been mentioned when political contributors discuss how Bush was right about Iranian influence in Iraq. Nothing about civilian deaths, or anything else for that matter.
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| Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post I wonder, can America truly be shamed over this when a large proportion of its populace either won’t know, won’t want to know or won’t care about the details? |
You’re right on all three. Most people will never ever hear about it. The vast majority that hear about it will ignore it. And again the majority of those who don’t ignore it won’t give a shit that horrible things are happening.
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| Allegations of killings, torture and abuse in Iraq contained in leaked US military logs “need to be looked at”, Nick Clegg said today. The deputy prime minister said any suggestion that the rules of war had been broken or torture had been condoned were “extremely serious”. The almost 400,000 secret US army field reports show two cases of alleged involvement of British troops in the abuse of detainees. Clegg did not rule out the possibility of an inquiry into the actions of British forces in Iraq, but said it was up to the US administration to answer for the actions of its forces. His comments contrasted with a statement from the Ministry of Defence yesterday, which warned that the posting of classified US military logs on the WikiLeaks website could endanger the lives of British forces. Clegg told BBC1’s The Andrew Marr Show: “We can bemoan how these leaks occurred, but I think the nature of the allegations made are extraordinarily serious. They are distressing to read about and they are very serious. I am assuming the US administration will want to provide its own answer. It’s not for us to tell them how to do that.” Asked if there should be an inquiry into the role of British troops, he said: “I think anything that suggests that basic rules of war, conflict and engagement have been broken or that torture has been in any way condoned are extremely serious and need to be looked at.” He added: “People will want to hear what the answer is to what are very, very serious allegations of a nature which I think everybody will find quite shocking.” |
Well then Clegg needs to beat that fucking drum until something happens. Lord knows the Lib Dems aren’t getting shit else out of that arrangement.
Clegg’s going to continue to get nothing. Probably the most foolhardy “lust for power” move ever made is him accepting that post in that coalition. He’s destroyed his party’s support and positioned his MPs as yes-men to take the flack for unpopular Tory decisions. Everyone crying over Obama’s centrist approach should count their lucky stars they are lumbered with this “liberal” turncoat.
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| Originally Posted by Mac View Post I’ve had CNN on my television for quite a bit this week, and these WikiLeaks have only been mentioned when political contributors discuss how Bush was right about Iranian influence in Iraq. Nothing about civilian deaths, or anything else for that matter. |
CNN is a joke. No offense but all the news channels in the states are a joke. Its being covered on other networks. The Chinese are eating it up, unsurprisingly. Saying it proves the US is far, far worse than the Chinese, that the US abuses of human rights far outweigh those of China. I’d have to agree.