"Scientists say dolphins should be treated as non-human persons" - Times Online

MISC CULTURE General Culture & Gossip
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Dolphins have been declared the world’s second most intelligent creatures after humans, with scientists suggesting they are so bright that they should be treated as “non-human persons”.

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Studies into dolphin behaviour have highlighted how similar their communications are to those of humans and that they are brighter than chimpanzees. These have been backed up by anatomical research showing that dolphin brains have many key features associated with high intelligence. The researchers argue that their work shows it is morally unacceptable to keep such intelligent animals in amusement parks or to kill them for food or by accident when fishing. Some 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die in this way each year. “Many dolphin brains are larger than our own and second in mass only to the human brain when corrected for body size,” said Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, who has used magnetic resonance imaging scans to map the brains of dolphin species and compare them with those of primates.

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I think the major problem in this way of thinking is that if we acknowledge dolphins as non-human persons, we would have to majorly change our way of behaviour on the seas, which is not going to happen.

Mankind is only prizing itself on its tolerance because it has not had to coexist with another intelligent species yet. We ve never had to share with anyone but ourselves.

At least thats my cynic view.

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Will they be subject to the legal system? Because I don’t wanna be on the jury that has to deal with dolphin rape.

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Originally Posted by Khaunshar View Post Mankind is only prizing itself on its tolerance because it has not had to coexist with another intelligent species yet. We ve never had to share with anyone but ourselves. At least thats my cynic view.

I thought the cynical view would be that humans can’t even co-exist with our OWN fucking species.

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Until dolphins can speak like Darwin on Seaquest DSV, I’ll consider this a non-issue.

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I’m just wondering if the Japanese are aware of the results of these studies. I’d be interested to hear what they have to say about it what with all the butchering.

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The Japanese are like that because they know that given the latitude, the dolphins will enslave us.

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Way to make me feel guilty for my long time fantasy of eating Dolphin Sushi…

And yes, while I do think we should offer greater protections to higher order animals (if it can be proven that an animal has a sense of humor, you should not make ashtrays out of it’s hands), I do wonder what we’re supposed to do about the issue of Dolphin cruelty. Many dolphins engage in abominably cruel behavior, seemingly for no purpose other than their own amusement. What are we to make of that, if they’re “non-human persons”? Do we set up a seperate judicary system to try and convict non human persons for such acts? Or are non human persons somehow above and beyond the reach of any law? If we are to say they need special protections and rights (that we do not afford to say, earth worms), should we expect them to shoulder special reponsibilities?

EDIT: Hat tip to PMR for his post #3, which I’d missed. He basically made the same point I just did.

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I guess we’ll have to make dolphin courts and dolphin jails with dolphin guards to watch the rapist dolphins.

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Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post Way to make me feel guilty for my long time fantasy of eating Dolphin Sushi… And yes, while I do think we should offer greater protections to higher order animals (if it can be proven that an animal has a sense of humor, you should not make ashtrays out of it’s hands), I do wonder what we’re supposed to do about the issue of Dolphin cruelty. Many dolphins engage in abominably cruel behavior, seemingly for no purpose other than their own amusement. What are we to make of that, if they’re “non-human persons”? Do we set up a seperate judicary system to try and convict non human persons for such acts? Or are non human persons somehow above and beyond the reach of any law? If we are to say they need special protections and rights (that we do not afford to say, earth worms), should we expect them to shoulder special reponsibilities? EDIT: Hat tip to PMR for his post #3, which I’d missed. He basically made the same point I just did.

Well, being non-human persons wouldn’t automatically make them subject to our laws and rules would it? We haven’t even been able to successfully decode any of their language yet even though they can learn thousands of words of ours, so communication would be a problem. I figure we can leave the dolphins to handle themselves.

As for your comment about higher order animals deserving more protection, I don’t really see why intelligence should be the main deciding factor on whether we treat animals cruelly or not.

The ability to suffer is a lot more important, otherwise we would have no problem using the mentally handicapped to pull carts.

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If you’re so smart, dolphin, then why are you so delicious?

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I ask people the exact same question every day. They never reply though, just kind of lie there making squealing noises.

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Just to be clear, it’s not like all scientists reached this conclusion. It’s understood that dolphins are generally quite intelligent (the article lists the number of ‘tests’ that scientists have created as general measures/categories of reasoning used/passed by higher level primates). Since dolphins have demonstrated culture, tool use, self-recognition, etc. there certainly is a case for them being in the same level of intelligence as primates.

The trouble really is that since their habitat and evolutionary track are so different, making truly accurate judgments about their relative intelligence is still fraught with uncertainties. There’s certainly a case to be made about it but I think it will take considerably more time before there is a consensus among a broad range of different fields (psychologists, biological anthropologists, etc.) that this is the case.

That being said, I’d still feel like a jerk for eating them … even if simply because their slow rate of maturity almost always means that consumption of them is not sustainable.

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Originally Posted by Hundred View Post I guess we’ll have to make dolphin courts and dolphin jails with dolphin guards to watch the rapist dolphins.

Won’t that just lead to dolphin prison rape?

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Originally Posted by dontEATnachos View Post That being said, I’d still feel like a jerk for eating them … even if simply because their slow rate of maturity almost always means that consumption of them is not sustainable.

Is this a joke? Because I seriously have wanted to try dolphin for a long time. Unfortunately I’ve had no idea where to try it. The Cape, maybe? Any suggestions would be helpful. Dolphin populations have rebounded, so I feel like I’d be ok with eating one these days (or at least, I doubt the guilt would be overwhelming)

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Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post Is this a joke? Because I seriously have wanted to try dolphin for a long time. Unfortunately I’ve had no idea where to try it. The Cape, maybe? Any suggestions would be helpful. Dolphin populations have rebounded, so I feel like I’d be ok with eating one these days (or at least, I doubt the guilt would be overwhelming)

So what makes cannibalism not okay in your mind? I’m just curious because there are a LOT of really fat tasty humans walking around and lets face it those people are just asking for it.

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Fuck dolphins and people, I want to dine on a Grey - something even more advanced than ourselves! But this seems to be an impossible dream, because you can’t eat upwards on the food chain.

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Originally Posted by dreary louse View Post Fuck dolphins and people, I want to dine on a Grey - something even more advanced than ourselves! But this seems to be an impossible dream, because you can’t eat upwards on the food chain.

Sure you can, trillions and trillions of parasites do it every day.

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Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post Well, being non-human persons wouldn’t automatically make them subject to our laws and rules would it? We haven’t even been able to successfully decode any of their language yet even though they can learn thousands of words of ours, so communication would be a problem. I figure we can leave the dolphins to handle themselves. As for your comment about higher order animals deserving more protection, I don’t really see why intelligence should be the main deciding factor on whether we treat animals cruelly or not. The ability to suffer is a lot more important, otherwise we would have no problem using the mentally handicapped to pull carts.

Well all I’m saying is that it sounds like the 14th Amendment all over again. That gave birth to corporate personhood, and the rise of immortal companies that had rights as citizens but could not go to jail even though the Amendment’s intended purpose was to protect freed slaves. Now it seems like we’re about to extend all kinds of benefits (if we listen to the ill council of some) to Dolphins, without first bothering to establish any sort of framework for dealing with these new “non human persons” in the legal system. Or for that matter, before we’ve figured out how to establish a legal system for dolphins in the first place. If you can somehow commit a crime against a dolphin, isn’t that dolphin equally capable of breaking the law when it directs violence towards a member of it’s own species? If the answer is yes, what , if anything, is our reponsibility in that situation? I have no idea, and thinking about it makes my head hurt. So I’ll move on and address your first point second. But not before I conclude this answer by saying, I am for protecting dolphins, but the idea of “non human personhood” seems like a giant moral and legal quagmire waiting to happen

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As for your comment about higher order animals deserving more protection, I don’t really see why intelligence should be the main deciding factor on whether we treat animals cruelly or not.

For the record:

I am against any cruel action directed at any animal, or even bug, regardless of it’s intelligence.

My objection to killing higher order mammals is based in evidence that proves they are self aware and some are as smart as toddlers or slow children. I cannot in good faith say that I would sanction the killing of a self aware intelligent animal for a purpose as frivilous as a coat or ash tray. Gorillas should be left alone, and killing them, regardless of the level of cruelty involved, is wrong.

On the other hand… I love cheese burgers. But as a decent person, I want to enjoy my cheeseburger in good health, knowing that no unnecessary cruelty came to the cow. I want to know that my cow did not die in terrible conditions, after a miserable life. I want my cow to be treated humanely, so when my cow’s time comes to be turned into cheeseburger, I will not feel that a wrong has been committed. I have a pair of incisors for a reason, and it’s not for eating celery sticks. I evolved to be an omnivore, so I’m alright with eating animals. I do feel though that some of the factor farming practices in this nation and around the world are abhorrent, and must be changed. Animals are not products. They are not grown or made, they are born. They need to be treated with respect

EDITED TO INCLUDE ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS:
For the record, no one has yet defined for me what a “non human person” even is, or what rights a non human person would be entitled to. The rights enumerated in the Constitution of the United States? Human Rights as defined by international Maritime Law? Does the Geneva Convention apply? As far as I’ve been able to discern, there is no definition for a “non human person”, and the issue of how to govern non human people becomes even more nebulous

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Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post So what makes cannibalism not okay in your mind? I’m just curious because there are a LOT of really fat tasty humans walking around and lets face it those people are just asking for it.

I am kind of unsure how to answer. Are you really asking me what is the difference between a human eating a human, and a human eating a marine mammal? If so, lemme know and I’ll try to formulate a reponse.